Application is a tank fed from the municipal supply. Of course there has to be a pump between the outlet side of the tank and the house.

A JoJo branded pump was supplied as part of the installation. This is almost certainly badge engineered. Googling shows me several other pumps with different brand names but clearly the same thing.

It certainly works, is certainly varispeed, but

1. the 750W pump can draw up to 840 (per my Kill-A-Watt)
2. noisy, with an annoying high speed whine (it is noisier than the heat pump just a couple of meters away, or the pool pump).

I am going to try applying some sound-proofing material to the inside of the cover and see if that helps. If it doesn’t, I may have to think about an upgrade.

Any brands I should be considering? Has to operate at 230VAc.

Nobody’s complained yet, but it’s early days, except for grouchy old me who thinks this is unacceptably loud.

The lower the power consumption the better, as it’s running from the inverter.

Per the manual it is

• 4.5 bar max pressure
• 66 lpm max flow
• most efficient at 13 to 40 lpm

 

6 hours ago, Bobster. said:

Application is a tank fed from the municipal supply

In line continuously or just backup?

I had a backup application... In a town with lots of water issues. I upgraded to a VSD Cascade pump and it worked well but I suspect you should go for DAB if you want longer life.

1 hour ago, frivan said:

In line continuously or just backup?

Supposed to be continuous, but has a bypass. Because of the noise I am bypassing at night.

It is leaking somewhere, and in my experience leaks only get worse. 

Have been using the 0.37kw pumps with pressure switch. They are inexpensive, with a reasonable flow rate.

We have one on our rain water tanks, and another on our mains water supply with 2kl storage.

Over the last 10 years have replaced both pumps, about 2-3 years back due to pressure switch failures, and it was cheaper to buy the complete pump with pressure switch, than just the pressure switch or pump.

Noise levels on the pumps has varied by brand, and I cant recall it being quoted on the pump spec data.

One of the units purchased over the years was quite high pitched whine, the others seemed to be much less so, more of a humming sound.

The cost of the units ranged from around R1000-R1300 over the years.

We purchased them from http://www.waterspot.co.za, you will have to call them for pricing. Maybe you can check with them on noise levels?

 

On 2024/11/24 at 12:39 PM, Bobster. said:

Application is a tank fed from the municipal supply. Of course there has to be a pump between the outlet side of the tank and the house.

A JoJo branded pump was supplied as part of the installation. This is almost certainly badge engineered. Googling shows me several other pumps with different brand names but clearly the same thing.

It certainly works, is certainly varispeed, but

1. the 750W pump can draw up to 840 (per my Kill-A-Watt)
2. noisy, with an annoying high speed whine (it is noisier than the heat pump just a couple of meters away, or the pool pump).

I am going to try applying some sound-proofing material to the inside of the cover and see if that helps. If it doesn’t, I may have to think about an upgrade.

Any brands I should be considering? Has to operate at 230VAc.

Nobody’s complained yet, but it’s early days, except for grouchy old me who thinks this is unacceptably loud.

The lower the power consumption the better, as it’s running from the inverter.

Per the manual it is

• 4.5 bar max pressure
• 66 lpm max flow
• most efficient at 13 to 40 lpm

 

Get one of these: https://thepoolteam.co.za/pump-box-rock-lrb

On 2024/11/24 at 12:39 PM, Bobster. said:

A JoJo branded pump was supplied as part of the installation. This is almost certainly badge engineered. Googling shows me several other pumps with different brand names but clearly the same thing.

Yes there are several different brands but most of them come out of the same factory in China and depending of who the importer is there can be a huge difference in price as well especially with VSD pumps.

On 2024/11/24 at 12:39 PM, Bobster. said:

I am going to try applying some sound-proofing material to the inside of the cover and see if that helps. If it doesn’t, I may have to think about an upgrade.

Just be careful not to obstruct the air flow of the motor too much otherwise the motor might burn out.

 

On 2024/11/24 at 12:39 PM, Bobster. said:

noisy, with an annoying high speed whine (it is noisier than the heat pump just a couple of meters away, or the pool pump).

Is it the pump which whine or the VSD controller on the pump which whine?

 

On 2024/11/24 at 8:04 PM, Bobster. said:

It is leaking somewhere, and in my experience leaks only get worse. 

Yes they tend to get worse until it is fixed.

 

Also install a couple of these type of pressure tanks on the output side of the pump so that the pump does not start that often.

Also look at the surface where the pump is installed, I once heard of an installer and he installed a pump on an empty paint can and every time the pump would run it empty paint can would amplify the noise that the pump makes.

Get a DAB Esybox 0.75kw, you won't be unhappy. 

https://waterpumps.co.za/products/dab-e-sybox-mini-3-automatic-pressure-pump-220v-0-75kw

Dead quiet and has a wifi connection, will tell you how much water you are using and there is a setting for higher pressure for a limited time when you want to have a shower etc.

Expensive but well worth it IMO.  

37 minutes ago, GerhardK83 said:

Yes there are several different brands but most of them come out of the same factory in China and depending of who the importer is there can be a huge difference in price as well especially with VSD pumps.

Just be careful not to obstruct the air flow of the motor too much otherwise the motor might burn out.

Is it the pump which whine or the VSD controller on the pump which whine?

Yes they tend to get worse until it is fixed.

Also install a couple of these type of pressure tanks on the output side of the pump so that the pump does not start that often.

Also look at the surface where the pump is installed, I once heard of an installer and he installed a pump on an empty paint can and every time the pump would run it empty paint can would amplify the noise that the pump makes.

DAB ESybox Pumps are water cooled so not fans making any noise

Also has a built in pressure tank and wifi connection with app to change settings etc. 

 

12 hours ago, GerhardK83 said:

On 2024/11/24 at 12:39 PM, Bobster. said:

noisy, with an annoying high speed whine (it is noisier than the heat pump just a couple of meters away, or the pool pump).

Is it the pump which whine or the VSD controller on the pump which whine?

I presume the pump, because you can hear it spinning up when it starts, then whilst it is running you can hear it speeding up and slowing down to meet demand. But IDK. Point is that it's noisy. There apparently is a noise suppressing cover available for this pump. My plumber is making enquiries

12 hours ago, GerhardK83 said:

 

On 2024/11/24 at 8:04 PM, Bobster. said:

It is leaking somewhere, and in my experience leaks only get worse. 

Yes they tend to get worse until it is fixed.

 

Also install a couple of these type of pressure tanks on the output side of the pump so that the pump does not start that often.

More money 😢

21 hours ago, Bobster. said:

There apparently is a noise suppressing cover available for this pump.

This is probably your best (cheapest) bet to try first, I have regular dab pumps and they whine too. The next would be a pressure tank to reduce the amount of times the pump turns on as mentioned above.

Another thing you can try if you have a ball valve / tap on the output of the pump, ...try closing it a little to choke the pump and reduce cavitation. Sometimes the pump will sound like it's got little stones inside, choking it adds back-pressure and it will run a lot quieter by reducing the cavitation bubbles in the water and at the same time it will make the pump last longer.

Thanks for the input everybody. 

In the meantime the plumber has been out, fixed the leak on the output side, but says there's a leak on the input side as well. This is because of a gasket that fails or is incorrectly fitted. He says it's a 10 minute job for the supplier (he can't open it because that would void the warranty). Supplier says it will be a week before they can get a guy here. Plumber is taking the pump away, says it will be quicker. 

In the meantime reservoirs in the area are running low. 

Probably because everybody is installing tanks and filling them. 

I bought this system so I would not be affected by an outage. My tank is full. The water will just sit in there and go manky. 

On 2024/11/27 at 8:24 AM, Bobster. said:

The water will just sit in there and go manky.

I recently bought some of these as we live mostly off rain water from the roof, they work well. I only use half of the recommended dosage.

https://www.takealot.com/water-purification-tablets/PLID94752400

 

Advice from the plumber and the manufacturer is that municipal water can be kept in the tank for 2 weeks.

The plumber has come to the party. He took the pump to the manufacturers. They fixed the leak and then put it on their test bench. It was reinstalled this morning. Not a moment too soon as Jhb Water and now restricting the reservoirs feeding this part of the world.

5 hours ago, Bobster. said:

They fixed the leak and then put it on their test bench. It was reinstalled this morning. Not a moment too soon as Jhb Water and now restricting the reservoirs feeding this part of the world.

Did this change the noise? I use the same JoJo branded pump (I also noticed the different-colors-being-a-rebadge when shopping around), and we also have that VSD-style whine in operation, but it's not loud enough to be bothersome to the neighbours. It helps that we also only run the pump during the day (to take advantage of Solar) since we did some math and worked out we're fully cycling the tank in 2 - 3 weeks maximum even, when only running during the day.

Power draw on ours (for our pressure setup) is  ~630W when a single tap is on, ~715W when two taps are on, ~745W when there are 3 or more taps. I'm measuring with a CBI astute breaker which is also how we control on/off-time (we use the the CBI/Tuya/SmartLife app). We actually used this to estimate runtime (based on consumption in kwh) to verify we were fully cycling the tank adequately by estimating how long the pump runs in a given day.

It's been running for just over a year and has saved us from several water outages; we just turn it on at the CBI switch at night if there's an outage.

1 hour ago, JayMardern said:

Did this change the noise?

I think it's got a bit quieter. But I have no way to put a number to that. The cover is killing the noise a bit, so I might try and get some sound proofing material this weekend and stick that inside the cover and see what effect that has.

1 hour ago, JayMardern said:

 

I use the same JoJo branded pump (I also noticed the different-colors-being-a-rebadge when shopping around), and we also have that VSD-style whine in operation, but it's not loud enough to be bothersome to the neighbours. It helps that we also only run the pump during the day (to take advantage of Solar) since we did some math and worked out we're fully cycling the tank in 2 - 3 weeks maximum even, when only running during the day.

So do you just turn the pump off at night? You don't switch back to the municipal supply?

1 hour ago, JayMardern said:

Power draw on ours (for our pressure setup) is  ~630W when a single tap is on, ~715W when two taps are on, ~745W when there are 3 or more taps. I'm measuring with a CBI astute breaker which is also how we control on/off-time (we use the the CBI/Tuya/SmartLife app). We actually used this to estimate runtime (based on consumption in kwh) to verify we were fully cycling the tank adequately by estimating how long the pump runs in a given day.

It's been running for just over a year and has saved us from several water outages; we just turn it on at the CBI switch at night if there's an outage.

I'm going to put mine on the kil-a-watt again, but not today. I suspect the output from the pump right now is higher than the municipal pressure, as when the pump turns off the tank still carries on filling. This says to me the tank is getting emptied by the pump faster than it refills from the City. I'm not going to let that keep me up at night. I suspect the City has turned the pressure down a bit.

Funny thing. When I flush the loo the cistern refills, but the pump doesn't run. It does run when we use the washing machine. So it may have some threshold at which it starts delivering.

I suspect these tanks are going to end up being a mixed blessing. The lucky people who have them will get through an outage, but when the supply comes back on again they are going to take big slurps to refill themselves. Or maybe not. It would be like leaving the garden tap on.

We have 2.5 kL. That should get us through 10 days, maybe a fortnight if we're careful.

Edited November 29, 20241 yr by Bobster.

50 minutes ago, Bobster. said:

So do you just turn the pump off at night? You don't switch back to the municipal supply?

I'm going to put mine on the kil-a-watt again, but not today. I suspect the output from the pump right now is higher than the municipal pressure, as when the pump turns off the tank still carries on filling. This says to me the tank is getting emptied by the pump faster than it refills from the City. I'm not going to let that keep me up at night. I suspect the City has turned the pressure down a bit.

Funny thing. When I flush the loo the cistern refills, but the pump doesn't run. It does run when we use the washing machine. So it may have some threshold at which it starts delivering.
 

Yeah the CBI turns it off on a timer. We could actually make it smarter (eg turn off when there's no Solar due to rain) with SmartLife automations, though it's not really energy-intensive enough to make it worth doing... (I do this with the other CBI on the swimming pool to save grid consumption).

Supply to the house is fed from both tank and municipal simultaneously (via what looks like a plumbing t-junction!) where the installers balanced the two, with the pump kicking in at a certain demand-pressure: the installers set it such that if we turn on the tap a little, it stays off; but a tap all-the-way-on triggers it. This means that there's sufficient pressure from municipal supply to run at night by just turning the pump off, whilst it gets mixed into the supply during the day (to cycle the water in the tank).

 

50 minutes ago, Bobster. said:

I suspect these tanks are going to end up being a mixed blessing. The lucky people who have them will get through an outage, but when the supply comes back on again they are going to take big slurps to refill themselves. Or maybe not. It would be like leaving the garden tap on.
 

 

Agreed: we've set out tank-fill tap/lever to pretty low to cut down on the pressure consumed by filling, but this is definitely still a concern. I see it as a stepping-stone to going independent with a borehole that fills the tank during the day using a large borehole pump, with the smaller JoJo pump running all the time from the tank. But that'll happen once the PV has finished paying for itself!

On 2024/11/29 at 4:03 PM, Bobster. said:

Funny thing. When I flush the loo the cistern refills, but the pump doesn't run. It does run when we use the washing machine. So it may have some threshold at which it starts delivering.

Ha! It turns out there are two water supply points for the house. And only one is backed up. I found this out when we had a water outage: There was no cold water in the guest bathroom, and that loo didn't flush. Everything else we turned on kicked the motor in. This was bearable, but it's a problem that we have two supply points and I can't find one of them. I have traced backwards from the tank, at a certain point the line goes underground and I don't see any connections going into the wall.
 

On 2024/11/24 at 12:39 PM, Bobster. said:

I am going to try applying some sound-proofing material to the inside of the cover and see if that helps.

Well the stuff you can get from the car sound guys doesn't seem  to do that much, but a better verdict would come from the neighbours. There's lots of material available, but most of it seems to be for killing unwanted echoes in a room or hall. I did find a company who say they can reduce the noise by 30dB guaranteed, but I either have to buy their insulation or get them to make a whole enclosure. The panels they will sell me are 100mm thick and I don't have that much room inside the current cover. An enclosure for the average pool pump and filter is 14K. Mine would be smaller and cheaper, but still north of 9K based on the measurements  I gave them, and it's not clear how they will provide for cooling (for a pool pump they don't bother as those are cooled by the water they move).
 

On 2024/12/31 at 12:13 PM, Bobster. said:

On 2024/11/29 at 4:03 PM, Bobster. said:

Funny thing. When I flush the loo the cistern refills, but the pump doesn't run. It does run when we use the washing machine. So it may have some threshold at which it starts delivering.

Ha! It turns out there are two water supply points for the house. And only one is backed up. I found this out when we had a water outage: There was no cold water in the guest bathroom, and that loo didn't flush. Everything else we turned on kicked the motor in. This was bearable, but it's a problem that we have two supply points and I can't find one of them. I have traced backwards from the tank, at a certain point the line goes underground and I don't see any connections going into the wall.

It is possible that the installer of the tank and pump installed a non return valve to prevent the system to flow back through the meter into the municipal system and that the non return valve is installed between the supply for the house and guest bathroom.

1 hour ago, GerhardK83 said:

It is possible that the installer of the tank and pump installed a non return valve to prevent the system to flow back through the meter into the municipal system and that the non return valve is installed between the supply for the house and guest bathroom.

That is indeed the case. Because I somehow never detected that there were two points of entry into the home. The guest bathroom, main bathroom and kitchen all get their hot water from the same geyser, but there are different supplies for cold. 

On 2024/11/26 at 10:05 AM, Bobster. said:

I presume the pump, because you can hear it spinning up when it starts, then whilst it is running you can hear it speeding up and slowing down to meet demand. But IDK. Point is that it's noisy.

So an ad from JoJo popped up on my Facebook feed. They are advertising this pump as "quiet". I replied to say something like "well you and I have different ideas about quiet". They then replied that I should DM them contact details and one of their reps would be in touch. He was just here. Replaced the pump. The replacement is not silent but it is quieter with less high-pitched sound.

I have his number. He said I can call him any time. Said I must not call the plumber, I must call him because he will always come out with spare pump.

Good response from JoJo.