I've had a 3Kw 24v Hybrid system running since 2014 with 6 x 250w solar panels and 6 x 175ah Gel batteries. Now my batteries have reached End Of Life... forumites help to on the way forward. Being on a very tight budget at the moment and with load shedding, what do I do:

1. Buy a small battery bank - 2 x 200ah Gel batteries and reduce my load to bare-bones during load shedding;

2. Buy a 5Kw inverter and suffer through load shedding till I can buy a battery (100ah Lithium ion);

3. Buy the a 100ah 24v lithium battery and run it of my current system, off course without comms as my current inverter is a MPPSolar Chinese inverter, 24v?

@Moffat, I am assuming you are in Cape Town, based on your other post, if so remember you have to have a council approved inverter for a solar installation, they are checking on solar panels using drones and if unregistered, the fines are close to R8000 

2 hours ago, Moffat said:

I've had a 3Kw 24v Hybrid system running since 2014 with 6 x 250w solar panels and 6 x 175ah Gel batteries. Now my batteries have reached End Of Life... forumites help to on the way forward. Being on a very tight budget at the moment and with load shedding, what do I do:

1. Buy a small battery bank - 2 x 200ah Gel batteries and reduce my load to bare-bones during load shedding;

2. Buy a 5Kw inverter and suffer through load shedding till I can buy a battery (100ah Lithium ion);

3. Buy the a 100ah 24v lithium battery and run it of my current system, off course without comms as my current inverter is a MPPSolar Chinese inverter, 24v?

Congratulations on at least 7 years of alternative energy, must be the longest Gel battery lifetime that I have heard of, ever.

Looking at your choices, I'd suggest applying a process of elimination, together with some smart predictions. Let's start with the predictions.

1. Eskom load shedding isn't going to get any better, rather, there is a good excellent chance that it may get worse.

2.Eskom pricing will increase at alarming rates, and frequency of increases. Put it this way, it definitely will not get cheaper.

3.Alternative energy components are not going to get much cheaper than they are at present, for at least the next 4-5 years. Prices of alternative energy components will increase or stay the same, reasons for this is COVID-19, the chip shortage, and demand for more generation and storage in far more wealthy countries than in SA.

4. Working from home, and therefore the reliability of home electricity supply, has quickly become the norm. Organisations have adopted "smart" work policies. These have had an impact on many sectors in the services industries. So unless the breadwinners in your home are employed in manufacturing / primary industries, where there is an operational requirement to be physically at work, it becomes more important to ensure a reliable electricity supply.

5. It's not only bread-winners that benefit from reliable electricity, but also the education of those younger people, primary, secondary and tertiary scholars.      

Considering the above, you may want to relook at your budget. People often complain of high energy increases and prices whilst they are driving a new (premium brand) car every two years, amongst other budgetary drains. I am not saying this is the case with you, but making a general comment that budgets for sustainable energy do not always enjoy a high enough priority. 

Your first option (#1) might make sense in the short term, but it's ancient tech and therefore will cost you more in the long run.

Option #3 is, in my opinion, quite foolish. Who wants to lose warranty and performance due to no comms between your inverter and the most expensive component, the storage? Some forumites have done exactly that, with sad and costly consequences.

Your only viable option is #2.

10 hours ago, Moffat said:

I've had a 3Kw 24v Hybrid system running since 2014 with 6 x 250w solar panels and 6 x 175ah Gel batteries. Now my batteries have reached End Of Life... forumites help to on the way forward. Being on a very tight budget at the moment and with load shedding, what do I do:

1. Buy a small battery bank - 2 x 200ah Gel batteries and reduce my load to bare-bones during load shedding;

2. Buy a 5Kw inverter and suffer through load shedding till I can buy a battery (100ah Lithium ion);

3. Buy the a 100ah 24v lithium battery and run it of my current system, off course without comms as my current inverter is a MPPSolar Chinese inverter, 24v?

1. or while you are scrapping your batteries, see if any good used replacements are available, use your remaining available balance towards 2. I suggest to phone ahead. I've been using good used 170ah's for a while now, and so far so good, not perfect but carry my daily load. I do consider them disposable/throw away due to replacement costs being very low.

2. I got my 5kw inverter 2nd hand (still with warranty) , however new ones are available quite cheaply. R9k - R10K gets you a axpert or growatt 5K inverter, or watch the classifieds, theres always someone upgrading.

3. comms between inverters and battery's can be solved with a pi and software very easily, the software fills in the intelligence needed, so dont let "lack of comms" stop you on this choice. further afaik, warranty isnt affected by lack of comms between the inverter and battery as long as its all setup correctly, you may need to get an "installer" in though.

assuming a budget of 10K, there a 5kw Axpert in classifieds for R7.5k, seems to still be available.

I would scrap all 6x 175ah (should get around R4k on scrap), and get 4x 175ah good used ones, you should pay in around R2k, maybe R3k. Selling your current 24v Inverter should cover this expense. So depending on what you can arrange, you could get another 4x 175ah batteries as well.

usable power should be around 3kWh on the 4, maybe more. 

Edited January 8, 20223 yr by Nitrious

5 hours ago, Nitrious said:

1. or while you are scrapping your batteries, see if any good used replacements are available, use your remaining available balance towards 2. I suggest to phone ahead. I've been using good used 170ah's for a while now, and so far so good, not perfect but carry my daily load. I do consider them disposable/throw away due to replacement costs being very low.

2. I got my 5kw inverter 2nd hand (still with warranty) , however new ones are available quite cheaply. R9k - R10K gets you a axpert or growatt 5K inverter, or watch the classifieds, theres always someone upgrading.

3. comms between inverters and battery's can be solved with a pi and software very easily, the software fills in the intelligence needed, so dont let "lack of comms" stop you on this choice. further afaik, warranty isnt affected by lack of comms between the inverter and battery as long as its all setup correctly, you may need to get an "installer" in though.

assuming a budget of 10K, there a 5kw Axpert in classifieds for R7.5k, seems to still be available.

I would scrap all 6x 175ah (should get around R4k on scrap), and get 4x 175ah good used ones, you should pay in around R2k, maybe R3k. Selling your current 24v Inverter should cover this expense. So depending on what you can arrange, you could get another 4x 175ah batteries as well.

usable power should be around 3kWh on the 4, maybe more. 

 

8 hours ago, Tariq said:

@Moffat, I am assuming you are in Cape Town, based on your other post, if so remember you have to have a council approved inverter for a solar installation, they are checking on solar panels using drones and if unregistered, the fines are close to R8000 

@TariqI'm actually based in Zimbabwe, but the issue with my post regarding Cape Town is that we have regulatory authorities who like to copy and paste some things without always looking at the local environment or just merely scrapping for more taxes on poor citizens. It's always good to stay abreast of regulations elsewhere so one is not caught on the wrong side with hardware that is likely to become suddenly redundant when regulations change.

6 hours ago, YellowTapemeasure said:

Congratulations on at least 7 years of alternative energy, must be the longest Gel battery lifetime that I have heard of, ever.

Looking at your choices, I'd suggest applying a process of elimination, together with some smart predictions. Let's start with the predictions.

1. Eskom load shedding isn't going to get any better, rather, there is a good excellent chance that it may get worse.

2.Eskom pricing will increase at alarming rates, and frequency of increases. Put it this way, it definitely will not get cheaper.

3.Alternative energy components are not going to get much cheaper than they are at present, for at least the next 4-5 years. Prices of alternative energy components will increase or stay the same, reasons for this is COVID-19, the chip shortage, and demand for more generation and storage in far more wealthy countries than in SA.

4. Working from home, and therefore the reliability of home electricity supply, has quickly become the norm. Organisations have adopted "smart" work policies. These have had an impact on many sectors in the services industries. So unless the breadwinners in your home are employed in manufacturing / primary industries, where there is an operational requirement to be physically at work, it becomes more important to ensure a reliable electricity supply.

5. It's not only bread-winners that benefit from reliable electricity, but also the education of those younger people, primary, secondary and tertiary scholars.      

Considering the above, you may want to relook at your budget. People often complain of high energy increases and prices whilst they are driving a new (premium brand) car every two years, amongst other budgetary drains. I am not saying this is the case with you, but making a general comment that budgets for sustainable energy do not always enjoy a high enough priority. 

Your first option (#1) might make sense in the short term, but it's ancient tech and therefore will cost you more in the long run.

Option #3 is, in my opinion, quite foolish. Who wants to lose warranty and performance due to no comms between your inverter and the most expensive component, the storage? Some forumites have done exactly that, with sad and costly consequences.

Your only viable option is #2.

I'm based in Zimbabwe and whilst we also get augmented electricity from Eskom, our local utility Zesa, is not reliable either and has similar symptoms of high tariffs and frequent increases. Being someone who works from home, I have since looked at my options and am inclined for the minute to get 4 x 200ah Gel batteries and limp along on my current system. I've looked at the 5Kw Sunsynk inverter and it's about R21,750.00 inc. vat on the cheaper side, now add batteries, even if I get Gel/Agm (R12,600.00) for now plus rewiring, that would take my budget to about R34,350.00 and add installation and labour R3,130.00 for whooping R37,480.00, that's excluding transportation to Zimbabwe. Unfortunately, apart from Covid-19 the economy here has not been kind so outlaying that amount all at once is not easy on me, hence the gymnastics of trying to see how to rebuild the system. At least I had invested in the panels early on. If anyone can redirect me somewhere where I can get cheaper 200ah batteries or cheaper brand new Sunsynk would appreciate it. After research it seems Sunsynk is better and more reliable than the Growatt and Axpert options.

6 hours ago, YellowTapemeasure said:

Congratulations on at least 7 years of alternative energy, must be the longest Gel battery lifetime that I have heard of, ever.

Looking at your choices, I'd suggest applying a process of elimination, together with some smart predictions. Let's start with the predictions.

1. Eskom load shedding isn't going to get any better, rather, there is a good excellent chance that it may get worse.

2.Eskom pricing will increase at alarming rates, and frequency of increases. Put it this way, it definitely will not get cheaper.

3.Alternative energy components are not going to get much cheaper than they are at present, for at least the next 4-5 years. Prices of alternative energy components will increase or stay the same, reasons for this is COVID-19, the chip shortage, and demand for more generation and storage in far more wealthy countries than in SA.

4. Working from home, and therefore the reliability of home electricity supply, has quickly become the norm. Organisations have adopted "smart" work policies. These have had an impact on many sectors in the services industries. So unless the breadwinners in your home are employed in manufacturing / primary industries, where there is an operational requirement to be physically at work, it becomes more important to ensure a reliable electricity supply.

5. It's not only bread-winners that benefit from reliable electricity, but also the education of those younger people, primary, secondary and tertiary scholars.      

Considering the above, you may want to relook at your budget. People often complain of high energy increases and prices whilst they are driving a new (premium brand) car every two years, amongst other budgetary drains. I am not saying this is the case with you, but making a general comment that budgets for sustainable energy do not always enjoy a high enough priority. 

Your first option (#1) might make sense in the short term, but it's ancient tech and therefore will cost you more in the long run.

Option #3 is, in my opinion, quite foolish. Who wants to lose warranty and performance due to no comms between your inverter and the most expensive component, the storage? Some forumites have done exactly that, with sad and costly consequences.

Your only viable option is #2.

Very well summarized. Any ideas about where to get the best price for a brand new 5Kw Sunsynk inverter? I'm more partial to this as there seems to be a robust community here as well as good reviews about it's reliability over the Growatt and Axpert. Fortunately being the frugal guy that I am, I am still driving my car from 2004 lol. It does the job and is still reasonable to maintain, but you are right about people not investing enough in the right areas. I'm based in Zimbabwe and Zesa, the local utility is just as bad as Eskom on load shedding and tariff increases if not worse.

My own income and work has been decimated by Covid-19 as well, hence the attempted gymnastics of trying to make a dollar out of 25cents.

5 hours ago, Moffat said:

I'm based in Zimbabwe and whilst we also get augmented electricity from Eskom, our local utility Zesa, is not reliable either and has similar symptoms of high tariffs and frequent increases. Being someone who works from home, I have since looked at my options and am inclined for the minute to get 4 x 200ah Gel batteries and limp along on my current system. I've looked at the 5Kw Sunsynk inverter and it's about R21,750.00 inc. vat on the cheaper side, now add batteries, even if I get Gel/Agm (R12,600.00) for now plus rewiring, that would take my budget to about R34,350.00 and add installation and labour R3,130.00 for whooping R37,480.00, that's excluding transportation to Zimbabwe. Unfortunately, apart from Covid-19 the economy here has not been kind so outlaying that amount all at once is not easy on me, hence the gymnastics of trying to see how to rebuild the system. At least I had invested in the panels early on. If anyone can redirect me somewhere where I can get cheaper 200ah batteries or cheaper brand new Sunsynk would appreciate it. After research it seems Sunsynk is better and more reliable than the Growatt and Axpert options.

This seems to be true but for R21k, you can get two 5kw Growatts and since you only need 5kw, you can keep the second one as a spare unit. 😁

Reviews of Growatt are okay at it's price point but it seems niggly.

...and that's just one source.

14 hours ago, Moffat said:

Very well summarized. Any ideas about where to get the best price for a brand new 5Kw Sunsynk inverter? I'm more partial to this as there seems to be a robust community here as well as good reviews about it's reliability over the Growatt and Axpert. Fortunately being the frugal guy that I am, I am still driving my car from 2004 lol. It does the job and is still reasonable to maintain, but you are right about people not investing enough in the right areas. I'm based in Zimbabwe and Zesa, the local utility is just as bad as Eskom on load shedding and tariff increases if not worse.

My own income and work has been decimated by Covid-19 as well, hence the attempted gymnastics of trying to make a dollar out of 25cents.

The Powerforumstore

13 hours ago, Moffat said:

Reviews of Growatt are okay at it's price point but it seems niggly.

...and that's just one source.

All my out door lights and indoor down lights and LED and then never flicker. I honestly don't have any complaints about my inverters and Technical support is always ready to assist with issues. Mainly datalogger issues because that is the only thing that is not working as I had expected. But thanks to the power forum, I managed to get my way around that issue by using RIOT to monitor my Pylontecs batteries. If you are looking for budget solar system, I would strongly recommend Growatt

24 minutes ago, hoohloc said:

All my out door lights and indoor down lights and LED and then never flicker. I honestly don't have any complaints about my inverters and Technical support is always ready to assist with issues. Mainly datalogger issues because that is the only thing that is not working as I had expected. But thanks to the power forum, I managed to get my way around that issue by using RIOT to monitor my Pylontecs batteries. If you are looking for budget solar system, I would strongly recommend Growatt

@hoohloc and @Moffat.

hoohloc I fully agree with you I also have 2 X Growatt SPF 5000 ES and so far after 7 months of running I have no issue with them whatsoever. Also they technical support is OK. I had a problem with them ( my house was strike by Lightning ) took it to the supplier and they repaired while I waited at no cost. I run my all house during the day including my 3 KW geyser without a glitch, no flickering LED lights. compared with other inverters on the market one get's 10 KW for the price of 5 KW of other makes. But then again in this forum the preferred inverter seems to be Sunsynk. Maybe they have a point because of the fact that one can export and you cannot do it with the Growatt. 
the only thing that I quite don't like but does not seem to be a problem is the fact that there is a small difference in the AC volts output. it varies betwen 0.5 to 1 V 

Regarding the data logger I'm fortunate that I have a programmer at home that has designed (in my humble opinion) a super software program where I can get and archive every single value from the inverters. see some of the info I get.

On 2022/01/08 at 7:36 AM, YellowTapemeasure said:

4. Working from home, and therefore the reliability of home electricity supply, has quickly become the norm. Organisations have adopted "smart" work policies. These have had an impact on many sectors in the services industries. So unless the breadwinners in your home are employed in manufacturing / primary industries, where there is an operational requirement to be physically at work, it becomes more important to ensure a reliable electricity supply.

My employees have gone as far as to rule that if you work from home, it is incumbent on you to ensure that you have uninterrupted power for your laptop and wifi. They will not countenance any time lost during office hours because of loadshedding or Eskom's "load reduction".

For me, the first priority was to have some lights and the TV on, wifi up, be able to charge phones during load shedding. For this a rather old "reconditioned" inverter and a box with some lead acid batteries sufficed. I think continuity for what you judge to be essentials must be the first priority. This doesn't save you any money, but it doesn't cost much either.

But I was watching prices too. The price of gear (which was actually falling in rand terms) and the price of electricity. The two lines on the graph approached each other over time to a point where I could see the possibility of breaking even after a number of years. Also I would have much improved protection against outages. At that point I pulled the trigger on a hybrid system.

I wasn't as conversant with matters like anti-islanding as some here are so wasn't thinking of regulations beyond an updated COC, and I didn't go the DIY route (I'd have had a fool, possibly a dead fool, for a customer).

So what you can afford is a factor. However there is also the soft value of always having the deep freeze running, always having the lights and the security system on. This isn't an easily quantified saving on the municipal bill, but it is worth something too.

Edited January 9, 20223 yr by Bobster

On 2022/01/08 at 8:18 AM, Nitrious said:

1. or while you are scrapping your batteries, see if any good used replacements are available, use your remaining available balance towards 2. I suggest to phone ahead. I've been using good used 170ah's for a while now, and so far so good, not perfect but carry my daily load. I do consider them disposable/throw away due to replacement costs being very low.

2. I got my 5kw inverter 2nd hand (still with warranty) , however new ones are available quite cheaply. R9k - R10K gets you a axpert or growatt 5K inverter, or watch the classifieds, theres always someone upgrading.

3. comms between inverters and battery's can be solved with a pi and software very easily, the software fills in the intelligence needed, so dont let "lack of comms" stop you on this choice. further afaik, warranty isnt affected by lack of comms between the inverter and battery as long as its all setup correctly, you may need to get an "installer" in though.

assuming a budget of 10K, there a 5kw Axpert in classifieds for R7.5k, seems to still be available.

I would scrap all 6x 175ah (should get around R4k on scrap), and get 4x 175ah good used ones, you should pay in around R2k, maybe R3k. Selling your current 24v Inverter should cover this expense. So depending on what you can arrange, you could get another 4x 175ah batteries as well.

usable power should be around 3kWh on the 4, maybe more. 

The scrapping is quite an interesting concept which hasn't quite caught-on in Zimbabwe. What we have is that installers take the old batteries off you, likely recycle them quietly and sell them off without the customer, being non-the-wiser. I have yet to come across a company offering to buy old or end of life batteries here.

8 minutes ago, Moffat said:

The scrapping is quite an interesting concept which hasn't quite caught-on in Zimbabwe. What we have is that installers take the old batteries off you, likely recycle them quietly and sell them off without the customer, being non-the-wiser. I have yet to come across a company offering to buy old or end of life batteries here.

the guys I deal with had quite a few zim deals the one day I did go, I tend to chat quite a bit to people when there's interest in things. I go through around once or twice a year as needed.

the zim guys may have even bought the agm's to sell as new, but thats a guess. I do know the zim guys cleared the place out around 30 mins before I got there and got the pick of the stock.

luckily there were a few units of what I wanted still left.

anyway, it seems the industry possibly "exists" but includes sa, although who would truck scrap agm's that far for around R600-R700 a piece is anybody's guess.

maybe its one way, with "good used" batts making their way to zim only.

I'm now looking into migrating over to li ion cost effectively on a more serious note.

Edited January 9, 20223 yr by Nitrious

2 hours ago, Antonio de Sa said:

@hoohloc and @Moffat.

hoohloc I fully agree with you I also have 2 X Growatt SPF 5000 ES and so far after 7 months of running I have no issue with them whatsoever. Also they technical support is OK. I had a problem with them ( my house was strike by Lightning ) took it to the supplier and they repaired while I waited at no cost. I run my all house during the day including my 3 KW geyser without a glitch, no flickering LED lights. compared with other inverters on the market one get's 10 KW for the price of 5 KW of other makes. But then again in this forum the preferred inverter seems to be Sunsynk. Maybe they have a point because of the fact that one can export and you cannot do it with the Growatt. 
the only thing that I quite don't like but does not seem to be a problem is the fact that there is a small difference in the AC volts output. it varies betwen 0.5 to 1 V 

Regarding the data logger I'm fortunate that I have a programmer at home that has designed (in my humble opinion) a super software program where I can get and archive every single value from the inverters. see some of the info I get.

That looks like a beautiful set of information gathering there. Would you be willing to share the software for this either free or even at a price? This would be very handy. Cost at the minute, given Covid-19 decimating incomes or at any other time is always a consideration for me and yes it makes sense to save every cent either for a rainy day or investment into retirement. Peace of mind on getting a decent enough kit with a long-term warranty, especially on the inverter is equally just as important. Thanks to this forum and YouTube channels, I've learnt a lot and have discovered that my installer didn't do a good job on my install, first time around and this is now leading to costly work of redoing the job. For instance from my solar panels, I do not have a Combiner Box and on my AC side, I do not have an AC fused protection, just a 13amp plug. I also didn't have my panels with a lightning arrestor, which I have now done. My current changeover switch will not allow me to completely by-pass the inverter, meaning if the inverter packed up, I would be without electricity even from the grid as everything goes through the inverter... all this factors are now shaping my thinking.

Given your experience with lightning on your inverter, I would recommend having an AC fused protection device or Surge Protection Device (SPD) before the Inverter as well as a breaker on the DC side if you don't already have one.

2 minutes ago, Nitrious said:

the guys I deal with had quite a few zim deals the one day I did go, I tend to chat quite a bit to people when there's interest in things.

the zim guys may have even bought the agm's to sell as new, but thats a guess. I do know the zim guys cleared the place out around 30 mins before I got there and got the pick of the stock.

luckily there were a few units of what I wanted still left.

anyway, it seems the industry possibly "exists" but includes sa, although who would truck scrap agm's that far for around R600-R700 a piece is anybody's guess.

maybe its one way, with "good used" batts making their way to zim only.

Well I can tell you that at the minute, the market in Zim is flooded with used Narada batteries and some are being passed off as new because, the industry being new and customers not taking the time to do their research or not having equipment are unable to know what's new or used or how many cycles a battery has already done. These things come "boxed". It's sad.

3 hours ago, Moffat said:

I have yet to come across a company offering to buy old or end of life batteries here

Hi Moffat. I'm in Zim and can help with some local information.

Chloride in Workington, Harare buys old SLA batteries for USD cash. Last time I checked they were paying USD0.70/kg for the big deep cycle batteries so a 200Ah would be roughly USD40.

Regarding Sunsynk/Deye Aurora Energy have the 8KVA in stock @2200, I don't know if they have the 5. Price wise you are not going to better the axperts. In our experience the king is very handy with it's constant 230V output even when supplying from grid power (unless in bypass) given that Zesa can be as low as 180V often.

For decent batteries I would suggest looking at Revov. Security distributors are the agent and we use them with good results. If you are wanting to upgrade your inverter rather save up and buy an R100 5.1kWh to get your system going and add to it as needed. They have stock of the  Revov 12V 200Ah which can be connected in series for 24V as I understand but not to 48V. They are a better option than SLA in my opinion and should hold their resell value better. Zesa power cuts are not going to get any better.

The company I work for uses Solar assistant for data monitoring and control and we try to always have stock of pis loaded with in case you need to source it here. It has been the simplest and most powerful commercial option we have used.
Send me a message if you need any more help/advice.