Just a simple Sunsynk 8kW, 10kW Freedom Won, 12 460 JA installation

[Flarkit]

Initially I'd opted for a 5kW Sunsynk with a single 5kW Lithium battery and 3.6kW of panels, as a slightly more budget-friendly route. The plan was to expand the panels and batteries in a few months. Then I thought it would be prudent to get an 8kW inverter and the rest just tumbled in after.

A quote from Cudub Holdings for the 8kW inverter, 2 Freedom Won eTower batteries and 12 460W JA panels was competitive and the whole experience was great. Equipment delivered 2 days after accepting their quote, I paid the deposit the following morning and was called at 7h00 the morning after with an offer to install that same day due to a cancellation.

The installer from Cudub Holdings practically danced with joy seeing our single large north-facing roof:

 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Flarkit

[Bernardf]

Nice neat install.

[Flarkit]

Thanks.

The guys from Cudub did a great job and sorted me out in a short time.  By day 2 I'd already missed a midday load-shedding slot completely. Really wish I'd woken up and had this done ages ago

Edited January 19, 2023 by Flarkit

[Kraai]

Hi Flarkit, installation looks very good. What brackets did they use to install the batteries upside and not flat.? 

[Steve87]

Looks great @Flarkittheir work is very neat & glad most importantly it meets your expectations!!! 

[BritishRacingGreen]

33 minutes ago, Steve87 said:

Looks great @Flarkittheir work is very neat & glad most importantly it meets your expectations!!! 

Yep, looks good, but where is the external E-N bonding? In the ac db box? 

[Steve87]

1 hour ago, BritishRacingGreen said:

Yep, looks good, but where is the external E-N bonding? In the ac db box? 

Very well spotted old chap. Eagles eyes you have there On face value looks to not be present at all. I have heard of some guys using a contactor relay. However, as you have said in both cases it would be usually visible. 

More & more I see other installers work of the Sunsynk & Deye inverters I realise it's the biggest left out misunderstood part of the install. 

Edited February 5, 2023 by Steve87

[Steve87]

I would also like to mention that the battery cable looks to be 35mm into the Inverter. The requirements call for 50mm2. No problem using 35mm2 or even 25mm2 between batteries but the final + & - need to be at 50mm2. Because the 8kW Sunsynk can draw more than 150A & 35mm2 cable will struggle with that requirement for long periods of time. Sunsynk specify these details for good reason. In fact max draw is 190aDC. 

I hope we not jumping the gun here, because they seem on face value to be a good trusted installation company. But these items mentioned I hope are there it's just the pics that don't show them clearly. 

Edited February 5, 2023 by Steve87

[Flarkit]

18 hours ago, BritishRacingGreen said:

Yep, looks good, but where is the external E-N bonding? In the ac db box? 

Thanks, BGR.

Pardon my lack of terminology, but does this refer to earthing the panels? If so, I've queried it with both the installer and the CEO. Apparently this is either done via rods in commercial installs, or using the house's own electrical earthing used by the grid. Does this make sense @Steve87?

[Flarkit]

13 hours ago, Steve87 said:

I would also like to mention that the battery cable looks to be 35mm into the Inverter. The requirements call for 50mm2. No problem using 35mm2 or even 25mm2 between batteries but the final + & - need to be at 50mm2. Because the 8kW Sunsynk can draw more than 150A & 35mm2 cable will struggle with that requirement for long periods of time. Sunsynk specify these details for good reason. In fact max draw is 190aDC. 

I hope we not jumping the gun here, because they seem on face value to be a good trusted installation company. But these items mentioned I hope are there it's just the pics that don't show them clearly. 

Cudub have been great through the whole process. These queries are worth checking though, thank you!

[Jacques Ester]

18 hours ago, Steve87 said:

Very well spotted old chap. Eagles eyes you have there On face value looks to not be present at all. I have heard of some guys using a contactor relay. However, as you have said in both cases it would be usually visible. 

More & more I see other installers work of the Sunsynk & Deye inverters I realise it's the biggest left out misunderstood part of the install. 

I have seen a lot of talk about the Neutral Earth bonding on the Sunsynk FB page.

Some guys say that there should be a permanent bond according to SANS and if you install a relay it doesn't comply and no COC can be written.

Any opinions?

 

[Flarkit]

22 hours ago, Kraai said:

Hi Flarkit, installation looks very good. What brackets did they use to install the batteries upside and not flat.? 

 

Here's the invoiced list:



@Steve87 I noted there's mention of 2 sets of 50mm Battery Cable pair...

 

[Flarkit]

Just your regular L-brackets, for the batteries:

 

2 per battery:

Edited February 6, 2023 by Flarkit

[Gavin286]

Those batteries look like they're barely hanging on to the L brackets! Heavy things get heavier over time so you might want to address that by widening the brackets on the batteries...

[Flarkit]

4 minutes ago, Gavin286 said:

Those batteries look like they're barely hanging on to the L brackets! Heavy things get heavier over time so you might want to address that by widening the brackets on the batteries...

 

Meaning replace the current ones with wider brackets? 

I was surprised to see 3 screws in each bracket, but perhaps this is per spec

 

[Gavin286]

5 minutes ago, Flarkit said:

 

Meaning replace the current ones with wider brackets? 

I was surprised to see 3 screws in each bracket, but perhaps this is per spec

 

When I had a loan battery, they also used these brackets, however each bracket had 2 8mm rawl bolts. The ones they used on yours look suspiciously petite for batteries (might just be me though that thinks so).

You can see on the image that my batt was also done in the same way but seems to have had a little more support. Perhaps the guys misjudged the distance on your brackets?

Sorry, I don't mean to be a judgey A-Hole, just adding in my 2c to check the mounts for your batts so they don't potentially fall off the wall.

 

[Virwat]

18 hours ago, Steve87 said:

I would also like to mention that the battery cable looks to be 35mm into the Inverter. The requirements call for 50mm2. No problem using 35mm2 or even 25mm2 between batteries but the final + & - need to be at 50mm2. Because the 8kW Sunsynk can draw more than 150A & 35mm2 cable will struggle with that requirement for long periods of time. Sunsynk specify these details for good reason. In fact max draw is 190aDC. 

I hope we not jumping the gun here, because they seem on face value to be a good trusted installation company. But these items mentioned I hope are there it's just the pics that don't show them clearly. 

The manuals says 1 thing, but what you get is another thing.

The Sunsynk batteries comes with 25mm sq cables with a clip on connectors.

So there is no way to cut that off and use 50mm cable & lugs on the battery side.

Edited February 6, 2023 by Virwat
Add pics

[Steve87]

Hi Gents,

There is a way to get this to work. You can connect the 2 X 25mm into a Keto DC fuse connector. 2 lugs can be connected onto a single terminal & then from the Inverter output of the Keto into the Inverter at 50mm cables with lugs. 

@Flarkit

I cannot see clearly the pic if that is 50mm2 cable, the inverter open bottom box will make for a better view. All I can tell you & the entire community is that in this game what is quoted & what is supplied can be 2 different things. 

I have seen some 545W panels actually turn out to be 460W panels. I have seen installers specify 50mm2 cable & use 35mm2 cable. It's for this reason I just say be cautious & I don't take joy in pointing these things out because it's not nice to see ppls hard earned cash going into deception. 

If you have seen thro my eyes & especially the Neutral to Earth Bonding bridge this is very important. The Sunsynk is NRS approved in its entirety. With its manual of operations & installation manual. That ATS240 Island signal mode was approved by the NRS so I very much doubt that the Neutral to Earth bond must be made permanent. If there was a deficiency in the technical manual the NRS would have demanded an amendment.

Bear in mind this that we are talking about is whether an Earth leakage will operate when the Grid is lost. I'm not talking about the push to test I'm talking about using a plug tester. & It's not my opinion it's fact without a Neutral to Earth bridge you definitely don't have a valid CoC & this machine in its current form without that E to N Bridge is not compliant with anything NRS related or safety related. 

I am all for the PV green card & the AREP P4 certificates etc but a 2 week course does not make you a professional installer. It's in depth knowledge & in depth underlying study of not just text, but why do we do something? Not just following aimlessly. 

You spending a lot of money here Ladies & Gents get it done properly. You are paying for this, it's not a favour the installer is doing for you. How much is the Earth to Neutral Bridge +-R1,300 excl VAT. It's really not a deal breaker but it's specified in the manual & for good reason. Their CEO has stressed it's importance in his videos pay attention, it's not a waste of time. Don't do it for the CoC do it because it's your money & your households safety. 

[Kalahari Cruiser]

15 hours ago, Steve87 said:

You spending a lot of money here Ladies & Gents get it done properly. You are paying for this, it's not a favour the installer is doing for you. How much is the Earth to Neutral Bridge +-R1,300 excl VAT.

Hi @Steve87

There's an earth to bridge box that's advertised quite widely, but it specifically says "up to 5KW inverters" on most sites. On Sustainable, they say it's compatible with BOTH the 5KW and 8KW Sunsynks. 

Example: https://www.solar-shop.co.za/ac-components/611-earth-neutral-bridge-box-ac-5kw-or-smaller.html

Can you confirm that this would be ideal for the 8KW Sunsynk? There's another one available but it's for "3-phase, up to 12KW....". 

 

And on the cable sizes: For my yet-to-be commissioned 8KW SunSynk, I purchased 3 pairs of SunSynk battery connectors (to connect 2x 5KWh batteries). There seems to be some questions on whether 50mm cable (inverter to batteries) would fit into these SunSynk connectors. Can anyone who's done this please advise? Or can the batteries be connected with suitable lugs (batteries are still boxed so I'm not 100% sure how this would link). For the battery 1 to battery 2 link I plan to use a pair of 35mm cables of equal length. 

[Steve87]

My apologies @Kalahari Cruiserbeen a very busy couple of days in the installation Scape.  Massive logistic problems especially with Solar panels. Trucks getting hijacked etc on their way to the Highveld from Durbs. Just a mess. Also no stock expected until End of March. Makes for a very tricky installation business We shall overcome!! 

Sorry back to your question. This widely used Earth Neutral Bridge is suitable for both 5kW & 8kW. I'm told it needs to handle the Earth current which would be smaller in nature hence it would be workable. Do not purchase the 12kW version, it is essentially the same thing except 3 Lives. You have 2 options on that bridge. Use the Lives from the Inverter or the ATS240 as per Sunsynk. Both are options but if you use the ATS240 you need to tick the Signal Island mode on the inverter settings. 

on your 2nd question I cant quite make out your question. Let me try to explain though. So the batteries have the special snap on connectors. The actual inverter has the Big M10 or 8 I can't remember terminal screw connector. So how do you get to 50mm2. First of all 2 X 50mm2 cables fit into the gland provided on the inverter side. It's very large & it fits. 

The 5kW battery is rated for 35mm2 or even 25mm2 cables. 2 of them paired into a Busbar of a keto or other busbar will enable 50mm2 normal cables to fit. I am also not sure if 50mm2 special snap on cables are available. I prefer to carry out the above process to get the 50mm2 cables connected. 

[Kalahari Cruiser]

On 2023/02/11 at 12:38 PM, Steve87 said:

This widely used Earth Neutral Bridge is suitable for both 5kW & 8kW.

EDIT: Apologies to OP for the thread hijack! For some reason I thought I was on another (my own) thread. 

 

No need to apologise for anything! Thanks for your informative and helpful reply. Yes, I saw the 3-phase version, and was focusing on the single-phase standalone version, which most online retailers advertise as "for up to 5KW inverters" while sustainable (I think) has it listed as suitable "for 5 and 8KW". I understand from @Kalahari Meerkat in the below post that I can use a contactor inside the AC box for this - may be a slightly neater and simpler alternative. 

 

 

On 2023/02/11 at 12:38 PM, Steve87 said:

So the batteries have the special snap on connectors.

Yes, I'm referring to those - I bought 3 pairs for my 2 batteries (thinking was 2 pairs for the battery-to-battery connection, and one half pair at either side of the bank (i.e. Battery 1 POS and battery 2 NEG return to close the parallel loop). These latter connections would be 75mm2 and presumably wont fit into these snap-on connectors. I guess I will let the electrician figure out the busbar way of using 75mm cables between battery bank and inverter. Presumably a pair of 75mm cables will fit through the gland at the inverter. Thanks again for your explanation @Steve87

EDIT: Apologies to OP for the thread hijack! For some reason I thought I was on another (my own) thread. 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Kalahari Cruiser
added image of connector

[Flarkit]

The OP doesn't mind hosting an informative discussion, at all 

[Steve87]

Humble apologies guys

[Leshen]

Nice installation. The earth neutral relay is generally a Normally Open relay which closes when power is supplied to the relay to bond the Load Neutral to Earth. That’s done via the ATS240 port and ticking Signal Island Mode. It definitely should not be a permanent bond. 
 

The issue is that if you don’t install the relay, you would have up to 110V between the load neutral and earth when the Grid is down. This elevated neutral is against SANS regulations. 

[abd7]

On 2023/02/14 at 6:44 AM, Leshen said:

Nice installation. The earth neutral relay is generally a Normally Open relay which closes when power is supplied to the relay to bond the Load Neutral to Earth. That’s done via the ATS240 port and ticking Signal Island Mode. It definitely should not be a permanent bond. 
 

The issue is that if you don’t install the relay, you would have up to 110V between the load neutral and earth when the Grid is down. This elevated neutral is against SANS regulations. 

Hi @Leshen

Can you confirm if the sunsynk user and training manuals have an error in the wording here (in bold) :

Should it not be CANNOT? 

 

"All neutrals can be linked together to maintain the neutral bond. When a Neural Earth bond is required for an ‘Off-grid’ operation, then it has to be removed on ‘Grid-Tied’ operation. If an Earth Bond is required between neutral and earth and your system is a hybrid system, then you can have a permanent earth wire since this can cause faults with an RCD before the inverter.
Since the inverter is a true hybrid, then the bond must only be made when the inverter is operating in Islanding Mode. To accommodate this, Sunsynk provides an AC output, which is connected to the A/T/S connections whenever the inverter is running on Island Mode. Therefore, you can simply connect the coil of an AC relay to the ATS 240 connections. "

Edited April 15, 2023 by abd7