6 minutes ago, P1000 said:

Is that what you are doing?

Anyway, the only real way to get answers about specific batteries is to do long term tests. Currently there are no reports for the majority of batteries available in South Africa. And if you look at the current reports, you will find that the biggest factor is the BMS (and the way it is configured).

So the arguments in this thread is just for the sake of argument. If you want to argue longevity of a battery, then the only real information you have to go on is historic performance, and for that your options are very limited. If your batteries get to 1000+ cycles, then you can start using them as part of the argument.

The only long term test I'm aware of is the Australian one who, coincidetally, are due a report some time this month. Up until now LFP has been showing better results than NMC, but NMC certainly hasn't done poorly. 

3 hours ago, P1000 said:

Is that what you are doing?

Anyway, the only real way to get answers about specific batteries is to do long term tests. Currently there are no reports for the majority of batteries available in South Africa. And if you look at the current reports, you will find that the biggest factor is the BMS (and the way it is configured).

So the arguments in this thread is just for the sake of argument. If you want to argue longevity of a battery, then the only real information you have to go on is historic performance, and for that your options are very limited. If your batteries get to 1000+ cycles, then you can start using them as part of the argument.

Yes, exactly part of my point. I'm yet to see a convincing analysis and research which proves LFP is so much better in a long term than the new NMC. That same biased study quoted, has been discussed several times on the forum previously and it cannot prove anything. Yet the OP implies, it leads to the conclusion that LFP is better than NMC in the Hubble batteries, while the tests were done with completely different NMC cells and under completely different conditions than those experienced in home environments with solar batteries

 

23 hours ago, Kalahari Meerkat said:

I wasn't convinced about NMC and Hubble, after reading this about LFP's outliving NMC's I guess I had the right hunch/feeling...

 

That's why I'm willing to prove at least on one point - the longevity that the study is not relevant to the NMC in Hubble. I don't have laboratory condition to test at various temperatures, etc. But at least I can prove that NMC in Hubble will still be above 80% SOH after 500 cycles. But no one is willing to take the challenge and put their money, where their mouth (armchair Google search) is!

Show me a long term test, with same cells used in Hubble, with BMS and home environment conditions and let's see how much LFP will be better and on which points!

Some articles from recently relevant to this thread .

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/10/rivian-changing-battery-cells-to-lfp-following-tesla-and-high-nickel.html

https://www.androidguys.com/promoted-news/what-make-bluettis-solar-generators-last-longer-lifepo4-battery-cells/

I like Lithium graphene cells, 10,000 cycles.

I also like my lithium torch, with solar panel built in, its kinda cool, even charges my cell phone if I ever needed it, and goes 10 hrs on a single charge.

on a totally unrelated side note, please please read the warranty's on your li ion battery's, most don't cover more than 3,500 cycles or 5 years on cells, 10 years goes back to 3,500 cycles, one cycle per day.

The above came up in a question asked of me on local warranty's from most local brands, its really quite limited. Happy to paste the results, but its not good news.

also watching iron flow battery's, I believe they're the next big thing in home energy storage. Lithium iron is also making a comeback due to patents expiring this year. So keep an eye out for that.

Edited March 12, 20224 yr by Nitrious

1 hour ago, Nitrious said:

I like Lithium graphene cells, 10,000 cycles.

I also like my lithium torch, with solar panel built in, its kinda cool, even charges my cell phone if I ever needed it, and goes 10 hrs on a single charge.

on a totally unrelated side note, please please read the warranty's on your li ion battery's, most don't cover more than 3,500 cycles or 5 years on cells, 10 years goes back to 3,500 cycles, one cycle per day.

The above came up in a question asked of me on local warranty's from most local brands, its really quite limited. Happy to paste the results, but its not good news.

also watching iron flow battery's, I believe they're the next big thing in home energy storage. Lithium iron is also making a comeback due to patents expiring this year. So keep an eye out for that.

I just had a look at my Pylontech warranty again and it doesn't actually say anything about cycle count numbers, only that he Minimum Capacity/remaining capacity would be not less than 60% of the Nominal Capacity at the end of Warranty Period (10 years).

Edited March 12, 20224 yr by Speedster

No problem, always happy to help out, this is all copy and pasted from the actual warranty's of these manufacturers, there's more but its not in the favour of the customer. Need more, let me know.

pylontech 5kw - This warranty commences the period of Five (5) years from the earlier of: 1. the date of installation of the Product; or 2. six (6) months after the date the Product was manufactured,

hubble AM-2 51V 5.5KWh - Hubble Lithium (pty) ltd warranty’s that the battery cells should achieve at least 5 years’ service life or deliver at least 3000 charge, discharge cycles as counted by the BMS, which ever event is achieved first.

revov - is operated under normal use conditions following the “datasheet” and “user manual”, will provide (planned) one cycle per day for 10 years, or 3500 cycles, whichever comes first. REVOV’s
battery would be defined as satisfactory if it is still able to produce 65% or more of
the model’s stated new capacity in kWh from a 100% State of Charge to 0% State
of Charge, during REVOV’s warranty period.” 

Freedom Won guarantees that the service life of the Freedom Lite battery will achieve at least a 10 year service life or deliver at least 3500 charge-discharge cycles, whichever event should first occur

• Battery age 0 to 5 years – Freedom Won will cover the full cost of the battery replacement

• Battery age 5 to 6 years – Freedom Won will cover 50% of the cost of the battery replacement

• Battery age 6 to 7 years – Freedom Won will cover 40% of the cost of the battery replacement

• Battery age 7 to 8 years – Freedom Won will cover 30% of the cost of the battery replacement

• Battery age 8 to 9 years – Freedom Won will cover 20% of the cost of the battery replacement

• Battery age 9 to 10 years – Freedom Won will cover 10% of the cost of the battery replacement

I personally think more people should actually read the warranty's that come with their battery's, they really aren't 10 years in almost all cases, certainly not on the cells anyway.

 

Edited March 12, 20224 yr by Nitrious

32 minutes ago, Nexuss said:

Some articles from recently relevant to this thread .

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/10/rivian-changing-battery-cells-to-lfp-following-tesla-and-high-nickel.html

https://www.androidguys.com/promoted-news/what-make-bluettis-solar-generators-last-longer-lifepo4-battery-cells/

Good articles, but I suspect that they will not convince.  The data was after all not gathered on his cells in his home...

The attitude displayed in some of the posts here reminds me of an old saying: "My mind is made up, don't confuse me with facts" 🤣

23 hours ago, PowerUser said:

Yes, exactly part of my point. I'm yet to see a convincing analysis and research which proves LFP is so much better in a long term than the new NMC. That same biased study quoted, has been discussed several times on the forum previously and it cannot prove anything. Yet the OP implies, it leads to the conclusion that LFP is better than NMC in the Hubble batteries, while the tests were done with completely different NMC cells and under completely different conditions than those experienced in home environments with solar batteries

 

 

That's why I'm willing to prove at least on one point - the longevity that the study is not relevant to the NMC in Hubble. I don't have laboratory condition to test at various temperatures, etc. But at least I can prove that NMC in Hubble will still be above 80% SOH after 500 cycles. But no one is willing to take the challenge and put their money, where their mouth (armchair Google search) is!

Show me a long term test, with same cells used in Hubble, with BMS and home environment conditions and let's see how much LFP will be better and on which points!

In my humble o[inion it's all hearsay. It's the good old "promote that which I chose". The "Democratic" majority syndrome. The majority buys Toyota so surely Toyota must be best.|

There is hardly any practical 10 year real life data to prove any of the "scientific" claims.
i.e. this NMC claim of above 80% SOH after 500 cycles. 
So if my Hubble has 200cycles it should be at around 92% of the SOH accordingly. 
Well, my Hubble still has it's 110A/h after 200 cycles. So I can rubbish that deterioration by practical example if I did a linear extrapolation.
The Lithium based Solar storage technology has not had enough long term real life usage to provide real world stats. It is pure technical lab assumptions and then we have the emotional association with those that opted for their preferred chemistry choice.
Best to monitor your own installation and report your experience instead of bashing one or the other based on theory and possible biased reports rather than practice.
Whether you choose one or the other, this technology is neither reasonably priced nor proven over the time periods claimed by the manufacturers.
Once we have the field usage data after the claimed periods and cycles, only then we will have a fair comparison between the different chemistries.  

How about a roi analysis across the brands, regardless of chemistry used but based on the warranty's

so price per unit stored across the life time of the battery's per brand.

Hopefully it make up for my astrophotography images, I'll put a few together tomorrow.

Edited March 12, 20224 yr by Nitrious

its deleted, sorry for any non intended, well anything/everything.

There's a competition I want to win, my enthusiasm got the best of me, its all I've got on the astrophotography side of things. I can only apologize. 

even went to extent of seeking the advise of the best minds in the business, access to the best equipment possible, Hubble excluded. there's really no explanation.

the posted examples weren't up to expected quality, please don't judge on those.

I'll do the roi however, its best everybody knows the actual cost per unit stored and used per warranty on their batts.

in addition, lithium cell tests will be included as I have them, these are lab tests but may be applicable to real world results.

 

Edited March 12, 20224 yr by Nitrious

1 hour ago, zsde said:

There is hardly any practical 10 year real life data to prove any of the "scientific" claims.
i.e. this NMC claim of above 80% SOH after 500 cycles. 
So if my Hubble has 200cycles it should be at around 92% of the SOH accordingly. 
Well, my Hubble still has it's 110A/h after 200 cycles. So I can rubbish that deterioration by practical example if I did a linear extrapolation.

Did you actually read the whole study ? I know its alot to read but you really should read it all to understand it all fully. One cycle on your battery is definitely not the same as a cycle in the 100% DOD test in the study.  

4 hours ago, Nitrious said:

No problem, always happy to help out, this is all copy and pasted from the actual warranty's of these manufacturers, there's more but its not in the favour of the customer. Need more, let me know.

pylontech 5kw - This warranty commences the period of Five (5) years from the earlier of: 1. the date of installation of the Product; or 2. six (6) months after the date the Product was manufactured,

hubble AM-2 51V 5.5KWh - Hubble Lithium (pty) ltd warranty’s that the battery cells should achieve at least 5 years’ service life or deliver at least 3000 charge, discharge cycles as counted by the BMS, which ever event is achieved first.

revov - is operated under normal use conditions following the “datasheet” and “user manual”, will provide (planned) one cycle per day for 10 years, or 3500 cycles, whichever comes first. REVOV’s
battery would be defined as satisfactory if it is still able to produce 65% or more of
the model’s stated new capacity in kWh from a 100% State of Charge to 0% State
of Charge, during REVOV’s warranty period.” 

Freedom Won guarantees that the service life of the Freedom Lite battery will achieve at least a 10 year service life or deliver at least 3500 charge-discharge cycles, whichever event should first occur

• Battery age 0 to 5 years – Freedom Won will cover the full cost of the battery replacement

• Battery age 5 to 6 years – Freedom Won will cover 50% of the cost of the battery replacement

• Battery age 6 to 7 years – Freedom Won will cover 40% of the cost of the battery replacement

• Battery age 7 to 8 years – Freedom Won will cover 30% of the cost of the battery replacement

• Battery age 8 to 9 years – Freedom Won will cover 20% of the cost of the battery replacement

• Battery age 9 to 10 years – Freedom Won will cover 10% of the cost of the battery replacement

I personally think more people should actually read the warranty's that come with their battery's, they really aren't 10 years in almost all cases, certainly not on the cells anyway.

 

Just to correct you regarding Hubble's warranty. It's a 10 year service life and not 5 years as you state. 

4 hours ago, Nexuss said:

Did you actually read the whole study ? I know its alot to read but you really should read it all to understand it all fully. One cycle on your battery is definitely not the same as a cycle in the 100% DOD test in the study.  

I did, and all I can suggest is that perhaps we report on our use experience on the specific storage batteries we have in a setup that hasn't got any other technical issues. And if we are able to monitor the SOH, then we can share our real world performance/experience. That will soon enough create a representative real world user experience. I have only had my setup for just short of 7 months and a mere 200 cycles. Thats not enough to come to any conclusion. The SOH is still 100%.
Maybe there are Forum Members that have had 2 or more years usage of their batteries and that can share their SOH. I am not pro or anti any of the chemistries, I have what I bought at the time and I can only hope that it will do what the Manufacturer promised. 

5 hours ago, Leshen said:

Just to correct you regarding Hubble's warranty. It's a 10 year service life and not 5 years as you state. 

Are you sure about this? I've looked around online a bit and can't find a copy of their original document, only retailer websites stating 50% capacity after 5 years or 3000 cycles. 

 

E.g. https://batterydistributors.co.za/hubble-battery-warranty/

 

Edit: here is one which says 10 years. I'm hoping this is the currently valid one. 

https://www.solar-shop.co.za/warranties/HubbleAM2Warranty.pdf

 

 

 

 

Edited March 13, 20224 yr by Speedster

3 hours ago, Speedster said:

Are you sure about this? I've looked around online a bit and can't find a copy of their original document, only retailer websites stating 50% capacity after 5 years or 3000 cycles. 

 

E.g. https://batterydistributors.co.za/hubble-battery-warranty/

 

Edit: here is one which says 10 years. I'm hoping this is the currently valid one. 

https://www.solar-shop.co.za/warranties/HubbleAM2Warranty.pdf

 

 

 

 

Here is the latest warranty document from Hubble

hubble_lithium_am-2_warranty_v7-1 (1).pdf

6 minutes ago, Leshen said:

Here is the latest warranty document from Hubble

hubble_lithium_am-2_warranty_v7-1 (1).pdf 367.03 kB · 1 download

By the way. BSL also has a 10 year warranty. 

1 hour ago, Leshen said:

Here is the latest warranty document from Hubble

hubble_lithium_am-2_warranty_v7-1 (1).pdf 367.03 kB · 5 downloads

I may have missed it, but it doesn't look like that warranty warranties much? It says it'll last 10 years or 3000 cycles, but gives no mimimum performance over that time whereas previously it warrantied at least 50% capacity.

Also interesting that the BMS only has a 2 year warranty.

Edited March 13, 20224 yr by Speedster

8 hours ago, zsde said:

I did, and all I can suggest is that perhaps we report on our use experience on the specific storage batteries we have in a setup that hasn't got any other technical issues. And if we are able to monitor the SOH, then we can share our real world performance/experience. That will soon enough create a representative real world user experience. I have only had my setup for just short of 7 months and a mere 200 cycles. Thats not enough to come to any conclusion. The SOH is still 100%.
Maybe there are Forum Members that have had 2 or more years usage of their batteries and that can share their SOH. I am not pro or anti any of the chemistries, I have what I bought at the time and I can only hope that it will do what the Manufacturer promised. 

That is not how science works. Having 10 people on a forum say they have xx% SOH  in x amount of cycles means absolutely nothing. You can reset your SOH in the battery firmware,and people can lie... The only real way to test the health is a full capacity test  in scientific studies and extrapolate data from that.

I think there is some confusion regarding the data in this study. If you look at the cycles for 80% DOD it points to around 2000 cycles. So 3000 cycles for the AM2 is not unreasonable at all considering the use case scenario in a solar setup ,i think most people should get that 3000 cycles before 80% capacity left,just like the manufacturer states. This is however quite a bit less than what most LFP batteries will do and that along with the safety factor of LFP makes it a preferred choice for solar applications. 

1 minute ago, Nexuss said:

That is not how science works. Having 10 people on a forum say they have xx% SOH  in x amount of cycles means absolutely nothing. You can reset your SOH in the battery firmware,and people can lie... The only real way to test the health is a full capacity test  in scientific studies and extrapolate data from that.

I think there is some confusion regarding the data in this study. If you look at the cycles for 80% DOD it points to around 2000 cycles. So 3000 cycles for the AM2 is not unreasonable at all considering the use case scenario in a solar setup ,i think most people should get that 3000 cycles before 80% capacity left,just like the manufacturer states. This is however quite a bit less than what most LFP batteries will do and that along with the safety factor of LFP makes it a preferred choice for solar applications. 

Just a small correction - the manufactuer states 50% after 10 years/3000 cycles. Or they used to state that in the warranty document, it's been removed now. I haven't seen anything to say 80% after 10 years/3000 cycles.

3 minutes ago, Speedster said:

Just a small correction - the manufactuer states 50% after 10 years/3000 cycles. Or they used to state that in the warranty document, it's been removed now. I haven't seen anything to say 80% after 10 years/3000 cycles.

I went off this graph?

https://www.hubblelithium.co.za/uploads/1/3/5/0/135079623/am-2_discharge_graph_and_dod.pdf

3 minutes ago, Nexuss said:

I went off this graph?

https://www.hubblelithium.co.za/uploads/1/3/5/0/135079623/am-2_discharge_graph_and_dod.pdf

Excellent. That is very encouraging. It looks like they tested at 100% DoD at 1C in which case those results are encouraging.

Edited March 13, 20224 yr by Speedster

14 hours ago, zsde said:

In my humble o[inion it's all hearsay. It's the good old "promote that which I chose". The "Democratic" majority syndrome. The majority buys Toyota so surely Toyota must be best.|

There's a reason people buy Toyota. You can get those things serviced anywhere. I drive a Hyundai. It broke down in Vicksburg. Try to get a Hyundai fixed in Vicksburg. The nearest big town is Bethlehem. There's no Hyundai dealer there either, but they have an arrangement with a BMW dealer. Meanwhile there's a Toyota dealer in Vicksburg with plenty of spares, and other franchises in neighbouring towns so that they can do stock transfers for less commonly used parts. 

So service and support are a factor too. That's reputational, and that takes time. Most of the brands we're discussing here haven't been around long enough to pass or fail the test of time. Recently somebody who works in the backup power industry said to me that expectation of 10 year life on lithium batteries in solar applications in South Africa is pie in the sky at this point because there's not enough data. He was specific about South Africa because what do we have that, say, Australia or Germany don't? Load shedding. I had this guy and another man who works in the security business tell me that load shedding has taken chunks out of life span of batteries used for backup because they have to work so much harder now.

9 hours ago, zsde said:

I did, and all I can suggest is that perhaps we report on our use experience on the specific storage batteries we have in a setup that hasn't got any other technical issues. And if we are able to monitor the SOH, then we can share our real world performance/experience. That will soon enough create a representative real world user experience. I have only had my setup for just short of 7 months and a mere 200 cycles. Thats not enough to come to any conclusion. The SOH is still 100%.
Maybe there are Forum Members that have had 2 or more years usage of their batteries and that can share their SOH. I am not pro or anti any of the chemistries, I have what I bought at the time and I can only hope that it will do what the Manufacturer promised. 

The SOH is whatever the BMS says it is.  

My batteries were 2.5 years old and no longer shouldering the same load they did when new. This on a 10 year warranty. SOH was reported as 103% (it was 103% they day they hooked up the CAN connection, and has never budged over 2 years. They sent a technician out who plugged in his lap top and told me that the individual cells were all OK and even said look, SOH is 103%. I asked him 103% of what, and how come it is unchanged for 2 years when, as I can demonstrate, the performance of the batteries has dropped off?

We are searching for truth in a land of smoke and mirrors.

Edited March 13, 20224 yr by Bobster

50 minutes ago, Speedster said:

I may have missed it, but it doesn't look like that warranty warranties much? It says it'll last 10 years or 3000 cycles, but gives no mimimum performance over that time whereas previously it warrantied at least 50% capacity.

Also interesting that the BMS only has a 2 year warranty.

I disagree. The document is clear. 

The battery has a 15 year intended design life, however Hubble Lithium (Pty) ltd warranty’s that the battery cells should achieve at least 10 years’ service life or deliver at least 3000 charge, discharge cycles as counted by the BMS, which ever event is achieved first.

I honestly think this is a pointless discussion as everyone should buy what they like. 

 

 

9 hours ago, zsde said:

I did, and all I can suggest is that perhaps we report on our use experience on the specific storage batteries we have in a setup that hasn't got any other technical issues. And if we are able to monitor the SOH, then we can share our real world performance/experience. That will soon enough create a representative real world user experience. I have only had my setup for just short of 7 months and a mere 200 cycles. Thats not enough to come to any conclusion. The SOH is still 100%.
Maybe there are Forum Members that have had 2 or more years usage of their batteries and that can share their SOH. I am not pro or anti any of the chemistries, I have what I bought at the time and I can only hope that it will do what the Manufacturer promised. 

Independent tests would be nice. But also probably expensive and would take up a lot of time to produce data that you could even extrapolate to get a 10 year figure.

And everything would have to be tested according to manufacturer's settings. Preferably with multiple inverters because, as I'm finding out, some manufacturers trust some inverters more than others. Or they like that inverter as long as it has firmware version whatever. 

But nobody's going to do independent tests unless somebody's going to fund them. And even then, as I know from years in the IT industry, manufacturers will complain that the test was not real world conditions and suited Brand-X much better than Brand-Z.