I wasn't convinced about NMC and Hubble, after reading this about LFP's outliving NMC's I guess I had the right hunch/feeling...

This study used "Micky Mouse" cells (18650), which are nothing like the cells in the batteries we buy for inverters, or even made by the same manufactures.

The writer of the article is obviously biased, as can be seen by his tone and opinions between the chemistries. He tries to play down the C rating, but makes a big issue of  flashpoint. 🤔

if ether battery reaches 419 deg F the BMS and internal wiring will break down, and cause big problems.

 

====== Cut from the actual experiment ======

 

Experimental Conditions

Tested batteries

The commercial 18650 cells examined in this work were manufactured by the following companies: LFP from A123 Systems (Part #APR18650M1A, 1.1 Ah), NCA from Panasonic (Part #NCR18650B, 3.2 Ah), and NMC from LG Chem (Part #18650HG2, 3 Ah). The three batteries were selected because they included common electrode formulations and were manufactured by reputable companies. Table I provides additional specifications for each cell, including the manufacturer-recommended operating bounds. According to inductively coupled plasma optical emission spectrometry (ICP-OES), the elemental composition of the NMC cathode is Ni_0.84Mn_0.06Co_0.1 (a Ni-enriched variant of NMC811). The NCA cathode is likely Ni_0.81Co_0.14Al_0.05. A description of the ICP-OES procedure is provided below and the raw data is given in Table SI (available online at stacks.iop.org/JES/167/120532/mmedia).

Table I.  Commercial 18650-format lithium-ion battery manufacturer-specified operating bounds.

Battery	LFP	NCA	NMC
Nominal Capacity (Ah)	1.1	3.2	3
Nominal Voltage (V)	3.3	3.6	3.6
Voltage Range (V)	2 to 3.6	2.5 to 4.2	2 to 4.2
Max Discharge Current (A)	30	6	20
Acceptable Temperature (°C)	−30 to 60	0 to 45	−5 to 50
Nominal Mass (g)	39	48.5	47

LFP wins by a mile no doubt. If the prismatic form factor somehow helps the NMC chemistry to perform better that would be awesome but i have not seen any evidence to prove that. There is nothing wrong with the 18650 form factor ,Tesla wouldn't of used it in its plaid model s if it was somehow inferior.

3 hours ago, TimCam said:

This study used "Micky Mouse" cells (18650), which are nothing like the cells in the batteries we buy for inverters, or even made by the same manufactures.

The writer of the article is obviously biased, as can be seen by his tone and opinions between the chemistries. He tries to play down the C rating, but makes a big issue of  flashpoint. 🤔

if ether battery reaches 419 deg F the BMS and internal wiring will break down, and cause big problems.

 

====== Cut from the actual experiment ======

 

Experimental Conditions

Tested batteries

The commercial 18650 cells examined in this work were manufactured by the following companies: LFP from A123 Systems (Part #APR18650M1A, 1.1 Ah), NCA from Panasonic (Part #NCR18650B, 3.2 Ah), and NMC from LG Chem (Part #18650HG2, 3 Ah). The three batteries were selected because they included common electrode formulations and were manufactured by reputable companies. Table I provides additional specifications for each cell, including the manufacturer-recommended operating bounds. According to inductively coupled plasma optical emission spectrometry (ICP-OES), the elemental composition of the NMC cathode is Ni_0.84Mn_0.06Co_0.1 (a Ni-enriched variant of NMC811). The NCA cathode is likely Ni_0.81Co_0.14Al_0.05. A description of the ICP-OES procedure is provided below and the raw data is given in Table SI (available online at stacks.iop.org/JES/167/120532/mmedia).

Table I.  Commercial 18650-format lithium-ion battery manufacturer-specified operating bounds.

Battery	LFP	NCA	NMC
Nominal Capacity (Ah)	1.1	3.2	3
Nominal Voltage (V)	3.3	3.6	3.6
Voltage Range (V)	2 to 3.6	2.5 to 4.2	2 to 4.2
Max Discharge Current (A)	30	6	20
Acceptable Temperature (°C)	−30 to 60	0 to 45	−5 to 50
Nominal Mass (g)	39	48.5	47

Yes exactly! But gullible people still fall for without checking the facts and what exactly has been tested!

Who is willing to publicly bet R20k with me, that my Hubble NMC battery will last more than the quoted 500 cycles in that Mickey Mouse study?

Not at all worried about "tests", we can all talk in five years and ten years time, the battery technology then will make this discussion irrelevant. 👍

Edited March 10, 20224 yr by TimCam

5 hours ago, TimCam said:

This study used "Micky Mouse" cells (18650), which are nothing like the cells in the batteries we buy for inverters, or even made by the same manufactures.

The writer of the article is obviously biased, as can be seen by his tone and opinions between the chemistries. He tries to play down the C rating, but makes a big issue of  flashpoint. 🤔

if ether battery reaches 419 deg F the BMS and internal wiring will break down, and cause big problems.

 

====== Cut from the actual experiment ======

 

Experimental Conditions

Tested batteries

The commercial 18650 cells examined in this work were manufactured by the following companies: LFP from A123 Systems (Part #APR18650M1A, 1.1 Ah), NCA from Panasonic (Part #NCR18650B, 3.2 Ah), and NMC from LG Chem (Part #18650HG2, 3 Ah). The three batteries were selected because they included common electrode formulations and were manufactured by reputable companies. Table I provides additional specifications for each cell, including the manufacturer-recommended operating bounds. According to inductively coupled plasma optical emission spectrometry (ICP-OES), the elemental composition of the NMC cathode is Ni_0.84Mn_0.06Co_0.1 (a Ni-enriched variant of NMC811). The NCA cathode is likely Ni_0.81Co_0.14Al_0.05. A description of the ICP-OES procedure is provided below and the raw data is given in Table SI (available online at stacks.iop.org/JES/167/120532/mmedia).

Table I.  Commercial 18650-format lithium-ion battery manufacturer-specified operating bounds.

Battery	LFP	NCA	NMC
Nominal Capacity (Ah)	1.1	3.2	3
Nominal Voltage (V)	3.3	3.6	3.6
Voltage Range (V)	2 to 3.6	2.5 to 4.2	2 to 4.2
Max Discharge Current (A)	30	6	20
Acceptable Temperature (°C)	−30 to 60	0 to 45	−5 to 50
Nominal Mass (g)	39	48.5	47

Bad science. Plenty of it today, gotta be very cautious.

Seems like a pretty solid article to me. Those were all prime cells by top manufacturers, and Sandia National Labs is one of the top energy labs around.

18650 are not 'mickey mouse' cells.  This is the chosen form factor for high energy applications, as it is the most efficient to cool. (As a side note, this was a major issue with Tesla's new 4680 form factor - cooling was marginal and required some redesigns of cooling and temperature management.)

Prismatic cells pack densely, but have poor cooling capacity. So they are used where you require a lot of storage, but at low C rates, where cooling is not a major factor.

NMC is a good chemistry, but is very sensitive to temperature - which is why Tesla's 'cooling' system includes heaters and radiators.  If used in the optimal temperature range, their cycle life is fine. If used out of that range, they degrade rapidly.

But for me, the choice is simple. For a household inverter system, LFP every time - and not for any of the reasons mentioned above, or in the original article. LFP cells are passively safe.  You can place a dead short on them, and they will not combust from self heating. NMC and NCA both have positive temperature coefficients, and if you short them (or they develop an internal short), they will just continue heating until they go boom...

16 hours ago, TimCam said:

This study used "Micky Mouse" cells (18650), which are nothing like the cells in the batteries we buy for inverters, or even made by the same manufactures.

Ok, is your position that the chemistry used in "Mickey Mouse" cells, presumably marketed by Disney Corp. although I've yet to come across those, is different from that of the cells used by the batteries sold locally with NMC cells?

8 minutes ago, Kalahari Meerkat said:

Ok, is your position that the chemistry used in "Mickey Mouse" cells, presumably marketed by Disney Corp. although I've yet to come across those, is different from that of the cells used by the batteries sold locally with NMC cells?

Put your money where your mouth is. My challenge for betting R20K still stands. Are you prepared to accept it based on your armchair research?

 

I would love free funds to add another battery to my system... 😉

Edited March 11, 20224 yr by PowerUser

2 minutes ago, PowerUser said:

Put your money where your mouth is. My challenge for betting R20K still stands. Are you prepared to accept it based on your armchair research?

Answer the question and don't evade it. You want 500 cycles until what? 80% Capacity remaining? The point of the study, since you seemed to have missed it, is that the Nickel Manganese Cobalt (problematic element there) chemistry cells are not as long lived as the LFP's that the only big plus is that they, by default, are supposed to accept and deliver more than C which  for vehicles is possibly needed, but in a solar setup, where more than likely you may not even need 0.5C assuming you have enough kWh's on tap, it makes little sense to go for a chemistry that is not cheaper and other than the current delivery capacities have no benefit, that I can see over the LFP chemistry.

4 minutes ago, Kalahari Meerkat said:

Answer the question and don't evade it. You want 500 cycles until what? 80% Capacity remaining? The point of the study, since you seemed to have missed it, is that the Nickel Manganese Cobalt (problematic element there) chemistry cells are not as long lived as the LFP's that the only big plus is that they, by default, are supposed to accept and deliver more than C which  for vehicles is possibly needed, but in a solar setup, where more than likely you may not even need 0.5C assuming you have enough kWh's on tap, it makes little sense to go for a chemistry that is not cheaper and other than the current delivery capacities have no benefit, that I can see over the LFP chemistry.

Yes, after 500 cycles I will still have more than 80% capacity, contrary to what the Mickey Mouse article claims!

35 minutes ago, JustinSchoeman said:

NMC is a good chemistry, but is very sensitive to temperature - which is why Tesla's 'cooling' system includes heaters and radiators.  If used in the optimal temperature range, their cycle life is fine. If used out of that range, they degrade rapidly.

 

For household use, the temperature ranges do not affect the NMC chemistry negatively. 

3 minutes ago, PowerUser said:

For household use, the temperature ranges do not affect the NMC chemistry negatively

In most installations.  Install it in an outbuilding, and highveld winters would be an issue - especially if you run high loads at night.

7 minutes ago, JustinSchoeman said:

In most installations.  Install it in an outbuilding, and highveld winters would be an issue - especially if you run high loads at night.

Do you have an article to show comparing NMC and LFP in "highveld winter" temperatures?

 

I'm in the highveld. My NMC battery is installed in a garage (an outbuilding) and yet I didn't have any issues during the past winter. My SOH is still on 100% as well!

Edited March 11, 20224 yr by PowerUser

Read the article in the original post, and compare cycle endurance at 15C to 25C...  My car in the garage generally shows <15C when I take it out on a winter morning.  I assume batteries in the garage would be at similar temperatures.

9 minutes ago, JustinSchoeman said:

Read the article in the original post, and compare cycle endurance at 15C to 25C...  My car in the garage generally shows <15C when I take it out on a winter morning.  I assume batteries in the garage would be at similar temperatures.

Again, this article is not based on the NMC cells used in the current solar lithium batteries.

9 minutes ago, PowerUser said:

Again, this article is not based on the NMC cells used in the current solar lithium batteries.

Then please provide the cell manufacturer and model numbers so I can try find something specific.  But I doubt there will be much difference. Basic thermal performance is usually pretty constrained based on basic chemistry of the cells.

14 hours ago, PowerUser said:

Yes exactly! But gullible people still fall for without checking the facts and what exactly has been tested!

Who is willing to publicly bet R20k with me, that my Hubble NMC battery will last more than the quoted 500 cycles in that Mickey Mouse study?

Yes your battery will most certainly last more than 500 cycles. Even if you wanted to test this you cant as the BMS treats the cells in your battery much more friendly than the cells were treated in this study (the cells were cycled brutally in the study to show the differences on a more clear scale). AFAIK the cutoff voltage for the cells in the AM2 is 2,9 volts. "For the 100% DOD regime, LFP cells were cycled from 2 to 3.6 V, NCA cells from 2.5 to 4.2 V, and NMC cells from 2 to 4.2 V. "

Just now, Nexuss said:

.... test this you cant as the BMS treats the cells in your battery much more friendly than the cells were treated in this study (the cells were cycled brutally in the study to show the differences on a more clear scale)....

Yet, your own words prove, the study is not relevant to our solar use batteries with BMS and it's very misleading trying to prove one technology is much better than the other one, for our use! That's my point!

6 minutes ago, PowerUser said:

Yet, your own words prove, the study is not relevant to our solar use batteries with BMS and it's very misleading trying to prove one technology is much better than the other one, for our use! That's my point!

Actually it is still very relevant , i was just pointing out the 100% DOD test details because you got stuck on the 500 cycles thing . If you look at the 20-80% DOD data for NMC it will be in line with how a BMS treats a battery.

14 minutes ago, Nexuss said:

Actually it is still very relevant , i was just pointing out the 100% DOD test details because you got stuck on the 500 cycles thing . If you look at the 20-80% DOD data for NMC it will be in line with how a BMS treats a battery.

In a real world scenario, we don't do 100% DOD, so not relevant either. By the way, I do 90% DOD (discharge from 100% to 10%) on my battery and the SOH is still 100% after 8 months. Not sure of the number of cycles, as I don't have RIOT to report on that.

1 hour ago, PowerUser said:

Yes, after 500 cycles I will still have more than 80% capacity, contrary to what the Mickey Mouse article claims!

Still evaded the question, moenie worry nie, those that let their mouth or their fingers run wild without engaging brain, probably need to be ignored.

 

I had no idea people were so emotional about their battery chemistries. TIL.

29 minutes ago, Speedster said:

I had no idea people were so emotional about their battery chemistries. TIL.

It’s not about battery chemistries. It’s about armchair Google “scientists” spreading fake news. 

Edited March 11, 20224 yr by PowerUser

4 minutes ago, PowerUser said:

It’s not about battery chemistries. It’s about armchair Google “scientists” spreading fake news. 

Is that what you are doing?

Anyway, the only real way to get answers about specific batteries is to do long term tests. Currently there are no reports for the majority of batteries available in South Africa. And if you look at the current reports, you will find that the biggest factor is the BMS (and the way it is configured).

So the arguments in this thread is just for the sake of argument. If you want to argue longevity of a battery, then the only real information you have to go on is historic performance, and for that your options are very limited. If your batteries get to 1000+ cycles, then you can start using them as part of the argument.