16 minutes ago, Leshen said:

I disagree. The document is clear. 

The battery has a 15 year intended design life, however Hubble Lithium (Pty) ltd warranty’s that the battery cells should achieve at least 10 years’ service life or deliver at least 3000 charge, discharge cycles as counted by the BMS, which ever event is achieved first.

I honestly think this is a pointless discussion as everyone should buy what they like. 

 

 

Would a charge cycle of 10% of original rated capacity after, say, 8 years still be within the warranty parameters or would that battery be eligible for some form of replacement?

7 minutes ago, Speedster said:

Would a charge cycle of 10% of original rated capacity after, say, 8 years still be within the warranty parameters or would that battery be eligible for some form of replacement?

I have no idea. Best would be to speak to the team at the Powerforum Store.

I have 2 x 6.4kwh BSL at my home and in all honesty, I really don't care as to what the performance will be in 8 or 10 years from now. 

 

 

51 minutes ago, Bobster said:

My batteries were 2.5 years old and no longer shouldering the same load they did when new. This on a 10 year warranty. SOH was reported as 103% (it was 103% they day they hooked up the CAN connection, and has never budged over 2 years. They sent a technician out who plugged in his lap top and told me that the individual cells were all OK and even said look, SOH is 103%. I asked him 103% of what, and how come it is unchanged for 2 years when, as I can demonstrate, the performance of the batteries has dropped off?

To be fair, I should add that there is a very good chance that the BMS itself was the problem and that the cells really were OK. But my point is that unless you have some calibrated, independent way of measuring battery performance instead of taking the BMS's word for the state of the batteries, who knows what condition those batteries are really in?

Nothing to do with the solar business really, but businesses also like to play games with the meanings of words. I used to work for a private healthcare company. One evening I come home and there on the drive time business news is the CEO of a very large medical aid having an argument with the minister of health. They are differing over the meaning of the word "cash" (medical aids are required to maintain a certain cash reserve so as to protect their members in case the fund collapses). The MOH said something like "'cash' means money in the bank." The CEO says "oh well, if you want to define it that way..." The MOH says "how else do you expect me to define it? You have shown me proof of an arrangement you have made, but it's an insurance policy from a company you own 100% of, how is that cash?". 

So I had a good laugh.

Then a week or so later I come home and, on the same program, my CEO is getting a grilling from the same very large medical aid. This time it's about "discounts". And at one point he says "I see now what the problem is. You want us to disclose discounts to us, and we do. But what you have just described is not something WE call a 'discount'. No. We call that a 'rebate', and so we don't have to disclose it."
 

Edited March 13, 20224 yr by Bobster
sppeling

43 minutes ago, Bobster said:

businesses also like to play games with the meanings of words

Man has been doing it for centuries, ever since written laws were received from God by Moses.

Mat 23:16  “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.’

1 hour ago, Leshen said:

I have no idea. Best would be to speak to the team at the Powerforum Store.

I have 2 x 6.4kwh BSL at my home and in all honesty, I really don't care as to what the performance will be in 8 or 10 years from now. 

 

 

I largely agree, but that is a different matter. Whether we care or not what the battery is going to be doing in 10 years is not the same as saying there is a solid warranty in place.

 

As has been mentioned, the products are too new to accurately know what will happen a decade down the line and, to my mind, a solid warranty is one way of mitigating that risk. Manufacturers should be able to have a good indication of what to expect as one can run over 4000 cycles at 1C in a year. 

The other thing is that very few batteries are going to discharge at their max current for the whole time. It'll perhaps peak at the max for a couple of minutes each day, but run at considerably lower for the bulk. This should extend expected life time significantly.

 

We do have the Australian test which is showing that, at least in their setup, the Pylon US2000 should be good for 60% capacity after 6000 cycles. 

I'm not pro or anti any specific chemistry as they have different strengths and weaknesses which could work for or against each use case. The important thing is to be aware of these differences and factor them into your decisions and usage. For most of us the basic tenets that LFP will probably have longer cycle life and NMC can provide higher C will probably hold true. Which one is "better" will depend on what you require from the battery. 

7 minutes ago, Speedster said:

I largely agree, but that is a different matter. Whether we care or not what the battery is going to be doing in 10 years is not the same as saying there is a solid warranty in place.

 

As has been mentioned, the products are too new to accurately know what will happen a decade down the line and, to my mind, a solid warranty is one way of mitigating that risk. Manufacturers should be able to have a good indication of what to expect as one can run over 4000 cycles at 1C in a year. 

The other thing is that very few batteries are going to discharge at their max current for the whole time. It'll perhaps peak at the max for a couple of minutes each day, but run at considerably lower for the bulk. This should extend expected life time significantly.

 

We do have the Australian test which is showing that, at least in their setup, the Pylon US2000 should be good for 60% capacity after 6000 cycles. 

I'm not pro or anti any specific chemistry as they have different strengths and weaknesses which could work for or against each use case. The important thing is to be aware of these differences and factor them into your decisions and usage. For most of us the basic tenets that LFP will probably have longer cycle life and NMC can provide higher C will probably hold true. Which one is "better" will depend on what you require from the battery. 

What's the difference between a warranty and a solid warranty?

Morning everyone, 

How about a nice manufacturer warranty vs roi comparison, warranty's will be as published by the manufacturer, this will be on cell cycles only, so monetary values can be established per unit stored over the period of the warranty.  Focus will be 5kw units. 10 year warranty on the paintjob isn't really a factor worth considering imo, hence cells only.

I'll use this as a placeholder as I get the info together.

I'll also put some cell testing procedures i have on hand in, its actually quite interesting but please note not every cell manufacturer does this, or makes the data available.

its worth also noting different cells have different performance graphs at lower temps, I'll put in 2 examples for comparison.

warranty info presented will include diy or authorized installer installation required, and any other installation nuances as may be required to uphold the warranty.

Edited March 13, 20224 yr by Nitrious

11 hours ago, Speedster said:

Anybody can write ”I promise to... " on a piece of paper. The question is whether they're able to back it up.

Can you perhaps state which battery manufacture has a "solid" warranty, one that's perhaps etched in stone?

they're almost all dodgy in the fine print, and you'll need system data daily over warranty period to prove you didn't exceed (insert variable here) spec, its really a case of guilty till proven innocent with the warranty's  

It is time this thread be put to rest, as there is NO positive or helpful conclusion been reached. It only causes division and bad feelings between members, and possibly is aimed to cause damage to a supplier in the connected forum shop. Please lets rather discuss useful and helpful subjects. 👍

1 minute ago, TimCam said:

It is time this thread be put to rest, as there is NO positive or helpful conclusion been reached. It only causes division and bad feelings between members, and possibly is aimed to cause damage to a supplier in the connected forum shop. Please lets rather discuss useful and helpful subjects. 👍

Thank you. I agree. 

i just saw this battery puncture test of the different chemistries. NMC is really scary.

 

@phidz Cellphones and tablets are even more scary. Are you going to throw your away and not use them anymore?

 

 

 

How is a 3Ah battery(cellphone) explosion more scary than a large 100Ah NMC battery to you? That makes no sense to me.

28 minutes ago, Nexuss said:

How is a 3Ah battery(cellphone) explosion more scary than a large 100Ah NMC battery to you? That makes no sense to me.

The phone is in your pocket, next to your ba.... 🤣

19 minutes ago, PowerUser said:

The phone is in your pocket, next to your ba.... 🤣

dont forget the radiation to and from the cell tower, we're rapidly heading towards 5g/6g phones as well, and all that right in your pocket.