SilverNodashi Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Who uses Lithium Ion / Lithium Ion Phosphate batteries? Which? And which with inverter? How hard have you pushed them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Hobson Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 My neighbour has does that count? He's got a LG battery and Schneider Inverter Ill get sizes and usage later. I think the Schneider is a 5kW. Mark 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverNodashi Posted March 7, 2017 Author Share Posted March 7, 2017 21 minutes ago, Chris Hobson said: My neighbour has does that count? He's got a LG battery and Schneider Inverter Ill get sizes and usage later. I think the Schneider is a 5kW. I guess that counts. I am looking for some feedback from satisfied clients, or non-satisfied clients Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Hobson Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 6,4 kW LG battery and 5kW Schneider. He seems happy got a cold room and everything that opens and shuts. Wind turbine went walkabout so it is waiting for new blades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverNodashi Posted March 7, 2017 Author Share Posted March 7, 2017 49 minutes ago, Chris Hobson said: 6,4 kW LG battery and 5kW Schneider. He seems happy got a cold room and everything that opens and shuts. Wind turbine went walkabout so it is waiting for new blades. Is this for the batteries? Though not necessary, I guess it's really hot there in Graaf-Reinet? ___ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Hobson Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 32 minutes ago, SilverNodashi said: Is this for the batteries? Though not necessary, I guess it's really hot there in Graaf-Reinet? No the coldroom is for biltong in its raw state. Joe is very happy with the inverter and batteries but is less impressed with the installer. Chris-R and Gabriël 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris-R Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Hi all you clever guys, please help an "Outoppie " here! What size of Lead/acid or gel battery bank will compare with a litium 5kw battery bank and how do I do that calculation? I am looking at various Litium options and the price is very much lower than a few months ago. What will the benefits be of rather using litium? Thanks Guys Energy-Jason 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
___ Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 32 minutes ago, Chris-R said: What size of Lead/acid or gel battery bank will compare with a litium 5kw battery bank and how do I do that calculation? Don't have much experience with that, but lead acid is generally 70% or so efficient (round trip) while lithium is >90% efficient. So you can immediately go 15% smaller with no real significant loss of capacity. Second is DoD vs lifetime, eg the Blue Nova LiFeYPO4 battery does 5000 cycles to 80% DoD, where a good Lead Acid does maybe half that to 50%. So immediately you have another 30% or so you can go smaller. Overall, as a rule of thumb, you can go half the size on lithium and have more or less the same capacity. The local SolarEdge+Tesla guy also told me this. I say that with a lot of hand waving, but it seems more or less accurate. Third then, Lithium can handle high charge and discharge rates, you can charge and discharge a C2 rates (two hours) and still do above 95% efficiency (compared to lead acid which starts to sustain damage if you do more than C5 for long periods). So you could probably get away with a 2kwh or 3kwh lithium bank, Thumb suck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris-R Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 I've got a 360ah bank and paid more for it than what a 5000w litium bank will cost imported from China? Wonder what the quality would be? But what you are saying is that given the quality be the same, I would be much better of with the litium? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverNodashi Posted March 7, 2017 Author Share Posted March 7, 2017 5 minutes ago, Chris-R said: I've got a 360ah bank and paid more for it than what a 5000w litium bank will cost imported from China? Wonder what the quality would be? But what you are saying is that given the quality be the same, I would be much better of with the litium? Does it have a BMS? If not, it would cost a bit extra. The blue nova batteries can drain to 0% without any damage at all. In fact, that guarantee it for 10 years, even at 100% DOD every day. So you could get away with a 180Ah lithium bank VS the 360 lead acid. And it works with most inverters, unlike some of the other brands which only work with 2 or 3 inverters. ___ and Johandup 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris-R Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Might be worth the while to try this out! Does not seem that anybody has really tried this or that there is a lot of hands on knowledge out there ( In the forum, as there is not really posts on this thread. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czauto Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 http://www.specializedsolarsystems.co.za/index.php/front-page-vm/batteries/zinc-bromideI've seen one. Helluva impresaive technology. Steep pricetag but i think a good option if you can afford itSent from my S60 using Tapatalk superdiy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris-R Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Just now, Czauto said: http://www.specializedsolarsystems.co.za/index.php/front-page-vm/batteries/zinc-bromide I've seen one. Helluva impresaive technology. Steep pricetag but i think a good option if you can afford it Sent from my S60 using Tapatalk 8 x 180ah @ 4295.00 = R 34360.00 + vat ( Lead / acid 2750cycles @ 30%) vs 5000w Litium Bank @ R 30 000 + vat + import duties if applicable on batteries? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czauto Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Anyone done their homework on the zinc bromide flow batteries? It seems their prices are plummeting.....100℅ dod without any damage or negative effects. 36500kwh warrantySent from my S60 using Tapatalk superdiy and Energy-Jason 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
___ Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 1 hour ago, SilverNodashi said: Does it have a BMS? If not, it would cost a bit extra. The BMS also has to be integrated with your inverter/charger. For example, with the FreedomWon battery the BMS signals when the battery is empty, and the Multiplus then goes into passthru mode so it stops discharging. In the same way the BMS will signal when it wants you to stop charging (one or more cells are high), in which case the MPPTs are turned off. Only works with the VEDirect MPPTs at the moment. This integration has to be done for the battery, if it hasn't been done yet, and this often limits what you can do with the batteries. As far as I know, for example, the Blue Nova batteries have BMS integration with the Multi, but not with the MPPTs, so when you use those batteries your PV has to come in via a GTI. I'm not perfectly sure, don't quote me on this. With FreedomWon, the integration is done for solar on the DC bus (I think they use a canbus connection). Then there are also the MyPower24 guys who uses a Voltronic inverter, and their stuff doesn't work with anything else at all (far as I know anyway). And of course there is the Tesla battery that only works with SolarEdge and SMA inverters. The LG batteries are well supported and has a BMS. Can't remember if it s Modbus RTU or Canbus, but there is a way to talk to it. Anyway, point is, you have to find out if the BMS is supported by your stack. The BMS basically ensures that no individual cell is damaged by going too high or too low, and to detect when balancing is required. Balancing can be active or passive. Passive balancing is done simply by passing a small current through the battery for a long period of time until the low cells pick up, and is perfectly adequate. The Victron LiFePo batteries use passive balancing, for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasel Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Played with the LG chem M4860 rated C1 i think and pushed it well past 4000W. Bypassing its BMS got 9KW in pure DC load, Seriously dangerous don't try this at home stuff :D The pylontech i believe is rated at C2 which is quite nice and it being safer phosphate battery with a good price makes a good option at the moment, That handles a 200A welder quite easily. But the point is really moot as it's going to come down to abuse over time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris-R Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Anybody with experience on a Vision Lithium battery pack with buildt-in BMS ? following a very interesting article on why, how, when Lithium vs VRLA/Gel https://www.victronenergy.com/blog/2015/03/30/batteries-lithium-ion-vs-agm/ ___ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverNodashi Posted March 8, 2017 Author Share Posted March 8, 2017 9 hours ago, Chris-R said: Anybody with experience on a Vision Lithium battery pack with buildt-in BMS ? following a very interesting article on why, how, when Lithium vs VRLA/Gel https://www.victronenergy.com/blog/2015/03/30/batteries-lithium-ion-vs-agm/ I'm rather dissapointed in the Vision AGM batteries. For the same price other batteries perform much better. So dunno about the Lithium ones. I love the graphs they have in that article, showing the discharge rates of lead acid at different loads VS lithium with the same loads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris-R Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 2 minutes ago, SilverNodashi said: I'm rather dissapointed in the Vision AGM batteries. For the same price other batteries perform much better. So dunno about the Lithium ones. I love the graphs they have in that article, showing the discharge rates of lead acid at different loads VS lithium with the same loads. The Vision Lithium carries a guarantee of 5 years or >4000 cycles?? Just wondering whether a warrantee like that means anything. I'm sure if something happens after few years they will have some or other excuse! How does the price of R30k for 5kw compare with others on the market? Any idea? ibiza 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 1 hour ago, Chris-R said: ... they will have some or other excuse! Allegedly batteries can be tested at the factories to see if they where operated within specs or not, which affects the warranty, or not. Trojans T105RE's can be tested in SA if there is a dispute. Have also seen how the guys go out to a site and very diplomatically show a very upset client that 1 - he never kept the water topped up (batteries where empty), that b - he overfilled the batteries before that (marks on the floor and side of batteries and 3 - he overcharged them, literally cooked them - marks on batteries and floor as well as settings on the controller, so sorry this is not a warranty claim. Warranties I am thinking of, like Trojans, are not there to cater for abuse, operating outside design specs, but rather to be more for normal use and factory faults. I would take that the same applies for most if not all other manufacturers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 On 3/7/2017 at 9:57 PM, Czauto said: http://www.specializedsolarsystems.co.za/index.php/front-page-vm/batteries/zinc-bromide I've seen one. Helluva impresaive technology. Steep pricetag but i think a good option if you can afford it Sent from my S60 using Tapatalk Now is what I call a battery: - 100 per cent cycle depth - Full energy storage capacity throughout their expected life - No reserved capacity required - No fire risk - Can operate at ambient temperatures as hot as 50°C - Unlimited shelf life I am not sure about the price tag, but if you consider only the 100% cycle depth, even if they are 4 times the price of the heavy black things we call batteries, it is a bargain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czauto Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 7 hours ago, Don said: I am not sure about the price tag, but if you consider only the 100% cycle depth, even if they are 4 times the price of the heavy black things we call batteries, it is a bargain. The guy where I saw this said his was $8000.That was a ZBM2 10Kwh unit. The thing cleans itself once a week. Me, coming from the Karoo where we still use lemons as batteries, was quite amazed with the unit. It seems however their prices have dropped by 50% in 6 months. http://redflow.com/products/redflow-zbm-2/ If it was $8000, price dropped by 50%, let's see (counting on fingers), We'll be able to get it free by April 2017. Free would mean it's a gift and you'll also not be liable for import duties...... Gabriël 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris-R Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 21 minutes ago, Czauto said: The guy where I saw this said his was $8000.That was a ZBM2 10Kwh unit. The thing cleans itself once a week. Me, coming from the Karoo where we still use lemons as batteries, was quite amazed with the unit. It seems however their prices have dropped by 50% in 6 months. http://redflow.com/products/redflow-zbm-2/ If it was $8000, price dropped by 50%, let's see (counting on fingers), We'll be able to get it free by April 2017. Free would mean it's a gift and you'll also not be liable for import duties...... Problem ???? Fre batteries but Z-Duties added and the netto price in SA will still be sky high!! Remember building costs in Russia is very high !! Johandup 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverNodashi Posted March 9, 2017 Author Share Posted March 9, 2017 9 hours ago, Chris-R said: The Vision Lithium carries a guarantee of 5 years or >4000 cycles?? Just wondering whether a warrantee like that means anything. I'm sure if something happens after few years they will have some or other excuse! How does the price of R30k for 5kw compare with others on the market? Any idea? 5 years isn't much. So that would work out to R60K for 10 years. Is that R30K cost price, or does it include shipping and VAT? ___ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris-R Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 R30 k is landed in SA incl charges. Might become little cheaper with sea freight and bulk quantities. Attached spec sheet of batts Vision Bat Specs.PDF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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