1 hour ago, Reet said:

So I will essentially be paying almost double  the amount of money for Pylontechs to get the equivalent rate of discharge of other 1C batteries? 
 

To throw another spanner in the works though, a lot of these 1C battery data sheets still suggest that you should stick to a 0.5C rate of discharge? So that pretty much means you might as well go for Pylontechs? Or am I misunderstanding what these data sheets are suggesting?

You are getting hung up on the C rating. You do need to look at your entire system and decide what purpose the battery will serve. In my instance I upgraded from my original 5kW battery to the Freedom Won Lite 10/8 because I wanted to get through the night. My high current draws (aircons, oven, geyser elements) are on my non-essential circuits so I look after my battery anyway. Also my limitation is my inverter (5kVA/4kW Victron Multiplus) so I can only charge at 70A from the inverter and 100A from my MPPT. These are less than the max charge discharge for the battery (200A).

@FixAMess made a very valid point on inverter sizing. Very seldom do I max out on my inverter and when I do I have full solar potential. To illustrate my point I will have my base load (+/- 500W), 2x aircons and the pool pump running.

BTW, I am not going to get hung up on inverter or battery brands. We all have our own opininions and BUDGET. Get yourself comfortable with your choice after doing necessary research (send emails to inverter battery suppliers if necessary).

1 hour ago, PowerUser said:

At the end of the day, one has to spend double the money with 0.5C battery to match the capacity of the inverter. 

Yes, but you have to look at what storage capacity you need.

eg. if say, you have a 3KW inverter, US2000C batteries and background load of load of 1KW it makes no difference if you need more than 2hrs off grid. (think i've got that about right🤔)

24 minutes ago, Superfly said:

Why did you not just add another 5KW?  R77k for 10KW is a bit steep. Did you want a 1C?

I did a deal with my installer. He wanted my battery for another customer of his, I paid in the difference of R33k (Feb last year). In my mind a good deal as my battery was already 18 months old. I wanted 10 kW. As I said, I'm not hung up on 1C.

6 hours ago, Peter V said:

Purely citing an example. Revov are clear in their spec, others are not.

Its great when we can share our experiences. Where I have a problem is when we start spreading either half truths or if we call a spade a spade false information.

One person would read it and starts spreading this bad false news.

This is the information that Hubble has always shared about their 12V drop in.

 

The later model uses NEW cells again as per their information shared.

 

Yes, I think part of the problem can be that people generally won't read specs and if buying something new they expect it all to be new. 2nd life is a bit of a new concept.

Another example is how many people generally read the manuals that come with products.

The C rating only becomes an issue when you don't have many batteries. E.g , I have 4xus3000 pylons, max discharge is 37x4 A..I usually max out st 80 Amps, odd..

And remember, compare C rating of charge vs discharge. Do they charge at 1C as well?

Most do not, usually C/2 + thereabouts, so even if you discharge at 1C, you can only charge at c/2, so your 1C battery will not fully charge in the time between loafshedding , sun,rain,cloud. So you end up buying another battery and so we go...The primary battery consideration is duration of use, 6hrs of load minimum, for loadshedding, not drain as quickly as possible.

Edited March 25, 20233 yr by FixAMess

11 minutes ago, Tinbum said:

Yes, I think part of the problem can be that people generally won't read specs and if buying something new they expect it all to be new. 2nd life is a bit of a new concept.

Another example is how many people generally read the manuals that come with products.

Here I am 100% with you. I have even sent people extracts of the manual now this is guy who is Googling every day but feels that he must have a different Deye. Further he blames his installer as he has not received his manual. If we drive a car and don't know newer features not being used years ago and it is in the manual surely we cannot blame the manufacturer.

If one shows interest in the equipment you use you would read manuals.

Edited March 25, 20233 yr by Scorp007

Before I even buy a product I would normally read or at least skim read the manual from cover to cover.

11 hours ago, Reet said:

So far, we have had 5 solar companies come to our house in JHB to quote on a solar system and I am yet to find people who will perform a proper needs analysis and not simply tell you to go with Sunsynk batteries and inverter because that is ‘what everyone else has

Mainly because this takes time. Essentially a quotation is something done at no charge to you. The other Main reason is that a lot of installers do not know how to size a system. 

But yes I agree with you in this regard: For me each installation starts off with a user requirement. At the end of the installation the user requirement must have been met. Otherwise money has been wasted.

11 hours ago, Reet said:

So far, we have had 5 solar companies come to our house in JHB to quote on a solar system and I am yet to find people who will perform a proper needs analysis and not simply tell you to go with Sunsynk batteries and inverter because that is ‘what everyone else has

Mainly because this takes time. Essentially a quotation is something done at no charge to you. The other Main reason is that a lot of installers do not know how to size a system. 

But yes I agree with you in this regard: For me each installation starts off with a user requirement. At the end of the installation the user requirement must have been met. Otherwise money has been wasted.

14 minutes ago, Steve87 said:

Mainly because this takes time. Essentially a quotation is something done at no charge to you. The other Main reason is that a lot of installers do not know how to size a system. 

But yes I agree with you in this regard: For me each installation starts off with a user requirement. At the end of the installation the user requirement must have been met. Otherwise money has been wasted.

Maybe a question for you Steve, If you were getting a system for your own home which battery would you get and why? You've seen the best and the worst in the installs - what would you trust your home to?

 

5 hours ago, Reet said:

So I will essentially be paying almost double  the amount of money for Pylontechs to get the equivalent rate of discharge of other 1C batteries? 

Well yes, but then you've got double the amount of storage, which is better if you want greater energy independence.

I guess it's like buying a 2-litre jug of milk instead of a 1-litre bottle, and it costs you cheaper per litre that way, but the opening from which you pour/discharge is the same size.

Is that a real problem? Especially if you're getting a reliable brand?

7 minutes ago, GreenFields said:

Well yes, but then you've got double the amount of storage, which is better if you want greater energy independence.

I guess it's like buying a 2-litre jug of milk instead of a 1-litre bottle, and it costs you cheaper per litre that way, but the opening from which you pour/discharge is the same size.

Is that a real problem? Especially if you're getting a reliable brand?

which battery would YOU choose for your home if starting now?

https://arena.gov.au/assets/2018/05/lithium-ion-battery-testing-public-report-12.pdf

If I were to install in my own home today, I would give Greenrich a chance. Failing that, Hubble, and failing that BSL or FW.

19 hours ago, FixAMess said:

Hi,

you are correct in being overwhelmed with all the info out there and what is the "correct" battery and Inverter.

The flavour of the day is definitely sunsync and in all honesty, it is a good choice, 1 of many, for the average home. 8kW is a lot for a home bt everybody seems to insist that 8kW is the way to go.

Consider this; the 8kW is what the inverter can take from the sun/panels (DC) and convert to AC. You will only get the full 8kW at noon (if your panels face N)  and you have approximately 10kW of panels. You will get a bell curve of solar production from 6am to 6pm (location dependent) in summer, starting from zero and increasing, then decreasing. To provide 8kW of power from batteries you will need at least a 10kW battery bank (and that will only last you an hour or so)..Rule of thumb, in winter you will get production of 4*installed solar capacity and in summer 5+...E.g You have 6kW panels, in summer you'll get 30+ kWh of power/day, in winter 20kwh/day, again depends where you are and the angle of your panels to the sun.

The point is 8kW is a lot for a household, I have  5kW system and it does what is required with the panels and battery combination I have...The inverter capacity, PV panels kW, battery bank must all align to give your 8kW. If you don't plan to run your geyser, washing machine during load-shedding then 8kW is probably not required.

One should consider the following when buying an inverter; (this is for the average guy, non technical and just wants a system that does the job with minimal fuss)

1) After sales support

2) Functionality (does it do what YOU require)

3) Ease of use

4) Talk natively to the battery

The above is what the average person requires from an inverter. I'll bet that MOST users don't want anything more than an inverter that allows the following;

1) Blend PV, battery, Escom

2) Talk natively to their battery

3) Maybe configure the inverter to charge/discharge from battery at specific times

4) Configure inverter to provide PV to the entire house but NOT feed back to the grid.

 

The sunsync/Deye does all this, but so does the Goodwe, Kodak etc...There are many out there that do a good job.

The next issue is cost...Whatever you  are prepared to pay will depend on the inverter you get.

As for batteries which are the most expensive part of the entire setup, consider the below, and remember, once you have 1 battery, you will want more and you are pretty much locked into the same battery supplier if you don't want to make config changes to your system.

E.g. Pylontechs are simple to augment. Batteries talk to each other, use the same cables, plug and play. Simple! To add a different battery to the pylontechs will require some work and they probably will not talk to each other so you will have issues with knowing exactly what your SOC/DoD is.

Batteries;

1) Must be able to talk to the inverter natively. Look on the forum, its full of people trying to connect some obscure battery to their inverter. It becomes an issue of charge, discharge profiles, warranty issues,no support etc...What a mess!

2) Must have a good BMS (difficult to tell unfortunately) 

3) Must have after sales support (and we are starting to see the issues with warranties now)

Frankly, batteries are unfortunately not required to go through a thorough testing process, certification in SA before they can be sold, so there are a lot of "new" battery brands out there that seem inexpensive, and therefore very enticing to a cash strapped buyer.

Pylontechs are well tested, seem reliable but are relatively expensive when considering the other brands, but you cant go wrong with pylontechs...Its a safe-to- buy battery.

I'm sure you'll get many more views, many criticizing my above opinion, so yes, its a difficult choice..

 

 

Dont forget that even if you have the big draw items on non essential you are then limited to 5kw ( approx of ac through the inverter) and will get ac overload warnings.I swapped my 5kw for an 8kw and its removed that problem.On the 8kw sunsynk the max ac output is 8800 volts and one can put 10400 w of panels on the roof.

19 hours ago, FixAMess said:

Hi,

you are correct in being overwhelmed with all the info out there and what is the "correct" battery and Inverter.

The flavour of the day is definitely sunsync and in all honesty, it is a good choice, 1 of many, for the average home. 8kW is a lot for a home bt everybody seems to insist that 8kW is the way to go.

Consider this; the 8kW is what the inverter can take from the sun/panels (DC) and convert to AC. You will only get the full 8kW at noon (if your panels face N)  and you have approximately 10kW of panels. You will get a bell curve of solar production from 6am to 6pm (location dependent) in summer, starting from zero and increasing, then decreasing. To provide 8kW of power from batteries you will need at least a 10kW battery bank (and that will only last you an hour or so)..Rule of thumb, in winter you will get production of 4*installed solar capacity and in summer 5+...E.g You have 6kW panels, in summer you'll get 30+ kWh of power/day, in winter 20kwh/day, again depends where you are and the angle of your panels to the sun.

The point is 8kW is a lot for a household, I have  5kW system and it does what is required with the panels and battery combination I have...The inverter capacity, PV panels kW, battery bank must all align to give your 8kW. If you don't plan to run your geyser, washing machine during load-shedding then 8kW is probably not required.

One should consider the following when buying an inverter; (this is for the average guy, non technical and just wants a system that does the job with minimal fuss)

1) After sales support

2) Functionality (does it do what YOU require)

3) Ease of use

4) Talk natively to the battery

The above is what the average person requires from an inverter. I'll bet that MOST users don't want anything more than an inverter that allows the following;

1) Blend PV, battery, Escom

2) Talk natively to their battery

3) Maybe configure the inverter to charge/discharge from battery at specific times

4) Configure inverter to provide PV to the entire house but NOT feed back to the grid.

 

The sunsync/Deye does all this, but so does the Goodwe, Kodak etc...There are many out there that do a good job.

The next issue is cost...Whatever you  are prepared to pay will depend on the inverter you get.

As for batteries which are the most expensive part of the entire setup, consider the below, and remember, once you have 1 battery, you will want more and you are pretty much locked into the same battery supplier if you don't want to make config changes to your system.

E.g. Pylontechs are simple to augment. Batteries talk to each other, use the same cables, plug and play. Simple! To add a different battery to the pylontechs will require some work and they probably will not talk to each other so you will have issues with knowing exactly what your SOC/DoD is.

Batteries;

1) Must be able to talk to the inverter natively. Look on the forum, its full of people trying to connect some obscure battery to their inverter. It becomes an issue of charge, discharge profiles, warranty issues,no support etc...What a mess!

2) Must have a good BMS (difficult to tell unfortunately) 

3) Must have after sales support (and we are starting to see the issues with warranties now)

Frankly, batteries are unfortunately not required to go through a thorough testing process, certification in SA before they can be sold, so there are a lot of "new" battery brands out there that seem inexpensive, and therefore very enticing to a cash strapped buyer.

Pylontechs are well tested, seem reliable but are relatively expensive when considering the other brands, but you cant go wrong with pylontechs...Its a safe-to- buy battery.

I'm sure you'll get many more views, many criticizing my above opinion, so yes, its a difficult choice..

 

 

I meant watts not volts.Replied before I had my coffee

1 hour ago, Nicholas Strachan said:

Dont forget that even if you have the big draw items on non essential you are then limited to 5kw

Not true , there is no limit on the non essential side so its impossible to get overloading problems like that. Passthrough is on the load side of the inverter and if you got overloading issues you went over the 35A passthough current on the UPS/load side of inverter.

13 hours ago, Steve87 said:

Mainly because this takes time. Essentially a quotation is something done at no charge to you. The other Main reason is that a lot of installers do not know how to size a system. 

But yes I agree with you in this regard: For me each installation starts off with a user requirement. At the end of the installation the user requirement must have been met. Otherwise money has been wasted.

I am a  retired engineer (with time on my hands) and it took me months to establish and understand what I really needed (not wanted). I listen to friends and aquaintences talking about embarking on the solar journey and mainly hear about the myths and legends they have collected along the way with little understanding of what "solar" is going to do for them, least of all the real cost. Those who have invested mostly have spent more than they should have on elements of the system and far too little on components they really needed. An example, a friend threw money at a 16kW Sunsynk and 15kW of battery (no panels yet) because his wife might want to bake during load shedding. 

 

@Peter Vthat is mainly where the problems lay. It quite technical & for many ppl it's becoming trendy & I have this machine etc & so it's also keeping up with the Jones' in a way. I believe more in common sense. Who cares what colour your meter is. Its there to supply you power & one needs to be very transparent from the beginning & realistic. Not everyone has the financial punch to get the final system they want. But along the way in a phased approach you encounter different results. As each phase is added you get better results but on the journey you really only then get to see what it is that you need. 

We need more people to be able to advise & direct ppl in the right direction but it takes time. 

56 minutes ago, Steve87 said:

We need more people to be able to advise & direct ppl in the right direction but it takes time. 

.. and you need people to heed sensible advice😊

@ReetThis topic has run a bit now sometimes a little off topic. What are your take aways so far?

1 hour ago, Peter V said:

I am a  retired engineer (with time on my hands) and it took me months to establish and understand what I really needed (not wanted). I listen to friends and aquaintences talking about embarking on the solar journey and mainly hear about the myths and legends they have collected along the way with little understanding of what "solar" is going to do for them, least of all the real cost. Those who have invested mostly have spent more than they should have on elements of the system and far too little on components they really needed. An example, a friend threw money at a 16kW Sunsynk and 15kW of battery (no panels yet) because his wife might want to bake during load shedding. 

 

Exactly this. I work full time and have a baby to take care of so this process is taking me extremely long as I can only do my research some evenings and over the weekend. Last week I woke up in a daze and asked my baby if she wanted her ‘battery’ instead of saying ‘bottle’. Crazy.  
 

I started researching towards the end of last year already and I am still trying to figure out what we really need. I was very tempted to simply close my eyes and pull the trigger on a system this past week after having a 36 hour power outage in our area BUT the money we spend on this system comes out of savings for education and a home renovation, so I would rather make triple sure and not waste money. Having said that I have no problem spending the money on the right system. 

1 hour ago, Nexuss said:

Not true , there is no limit on the non essential side so its impossible to get overloading problems like that. Passthrough is on the load side of the inverter and if you got overloading issues you went over the 35A passthough current on the UPS/load side of inverter.

My 5kw inverter was  luxpower and it was awhile back to so cannot remember exact details but be it amps or watts one is limited on the essential side what you can pass through it.Look on the specs sticker  on every inverter.If that was the case case we would all buy small inverters.I think the wording is max ac output but on this i am correct

Edited March 26, 20233 yr by Nicholas Strachan

2 hours ago, Nicholas Strachan said:

Dont forget that even if you have the big draw items on non essential you are then limited to 5kw ( approx of ac through the inverter) and will get ac overload warnings.I swapped my 5kw for an 8kw and its removed that problem.On the 8kw sunsynk the max ac output is 8800 volts and one can put 10400 w of panels on the roof.

The non essential side sits before the inverter (from grid) and after the current meter, so strictly speaking, no non essential power goes through the inverter when the grid is down.

When the grid is up, you can feed the entire house up to the 5/8 kW rating of the inverter, but it should not trip if you draw power on the  essential side > 5kW, since the inverter will blend power from the grid  and pv..On the non essential side, when escom up, you have pass through current , which allows > 5kW to non essential (up to 32A, ??? I think, sunsync) .

When escom down, you will only have the 5/8kW available on the essential side, which is what you've stated.

 

Edited March 26, 20233 yr by FixAMess