10 hours ago, Vassen said:

Wow. This thread really went pear shaped for a while. Seems like every pylontech vs… ends up like that. 
 

Strange that Hubble went from a 10 year warranty, down to a 5 year and then back to 10 years. Any idea why this was the case. 
 

@LeshenAs far as I know, the pylontech US5000 has always been a 5 year warranty, so they haven’t really reduced. It was designed as such so I think it’s a bit unfair to state that they have reduced the warranty on this. 
 

Bottom line is every manufacturer has some conditions and many will try to get out of warranty replacement if the product was not used as intended. On the other side there are people that will buy 1 battery and expect it to do the job of 5. 
 

For me personally, Hubble is still very new. It may be a great battery but only time will tell. Pylontech has been in our market for far longer and there are many people using them. Some of them may have had issues. Which is normal. If we have to compare the number of pylons in the market, it will far exceed Hubble and bsl. After some time we will start hearing stories about Hubble and bsl too and people will be upset. 
 

I keep hearing about issues with the US3000C but maybe I’m just lucky as I have not had any, I started with 2 US3000, then added a US3000C and didnt experience and issues. Last week replaced the US3000 as I gave that to someone else and I now have 4 US3000C without any issues. I am planning to get 2 more for a total of 21Kwh of storage. Price wise, Hubble and BSL could not match the price vs capacity I’m getting with Pylontech. I don’t care about the 1C but rather about max storage. If one is on a tight budget, then sure the 1C makes a difference and then perhaps the Hubble will be fine. For how long, only time will tell. 
 

For me, pylontech is an established international brand. Pretty good chance they going to be around in 5 or 10 years to consider the warranty. Hubble is a local brand, how sure are we that they will still be around in 5 or 10 years… given the state of our country and the crap that we are forced to live with.  I’m not even sure I will be around here in 5 or 10 years. Batteries are a huge investment. A warranty means nothing if the company goes bust. That’s just my biggest concern when spending almost 100k on batteries. 

@Vassen I am not too concerned about Hubble being around in the next 10 or 20 years it is Local yes  and as far as I know they have roots and support of a company thats been around longer that Segen solar GC Solar and pylontech and other brands the positive aspect is that they offer good after sales service and they are continously developing new tech on their batteries and I support local cause its lekka..

2 hours ago, zathras said:

Good question, hadn't thought that much about all the implications of cycling. I would probably set it to a more conservative depth of discharge, e.g 30%, even if it meant switching back to grid at some point in the night. We'll see when the city of Joburg solar tariffs kick in. 

Installer should be coming out soon for site visit then will discussed installation locations with him. For now, the rooms I've earmarked as possibilities don't have extreme temperatures where the battery would be charging or discharging below zero or greater than 25 to 30 degree Celsius. But they aren't temperature controlled. The house is north facing with pink aerolite, so temperature doesn't get too extreme. No aircons needed in summer.

Great! The Pylontech warranty is very prescriptive around those things (amongst others), no more than 27 degrees Celsius.

2 hours ago, Vassen said:

I looked at the price comparison vs usable capacity a few weeks ago and the US3000C was cheaper, and had a longer warranty so for me it made sense to stick to the 3000C. 

Would love to see those price comparisons price per watt linked to warrany 

On 2021/06/13 at 11:09 AM, YellowTapemeasure said:

Great! The Pylontech warranty is very prescriptive around those things (amongst others), no more than 27 degrees Celsius.

Ola sir.  Can you maybe link the Pylontech warranty you are referring to?

The document i have (attached), only refers to ambient temperature as per manual (which is 50deg)

Testing is limited to 25 deg +- degree, but not everyday usage.

thx!

The daily usage thing is a headache  -> wanted to phase in my solar install, with inverter plus batteries first, then solar later. Can i request eskom to do phase 1 loadshedding everyday for the next 3 years?

daily usage is a strange term however. What happens if you go on holiday and switch everything off , hypothetically, for three weeks?

Pylontech_product_warranty_US serie-EU_2020 Oct.pdf

3 hours ago, ErwinK said:

Ola sir.  Can you maybe link the Pylontech warranty you are referring to?

The document i have (attached), only refers to ambient temperature as per manual (which is 50deg)

Testing is limited to 25 deg +- degree, but not everyday usage.

thx!

The daily usage thing is a headache  -> wanted to phase in my solar install, with inverter plus batteries first, then solar later. Can i request eskom to do phase 1 loadshedding everyday for the next 3 years?

daily usage is a strange term however. What happens if you go on holiday and switch everything off , hypothetically, for three weeks?

Pylontech_product_warranty_US serie-EU_2020 Oct.pdf 448.19 kB · 3 downloads

Yes, the US series have a "working temperature" of 0 to 50 degrees C. 

Yes, the performance test condition for a third party (in event of a warranty dispute) to determine capacity of minimum 60% is referenced at 25 degrees C +-2 degrees either way, as per your attached document. These conditions are quite prescriptive, and Pylontech seems to be the only manufacturer that specifies it..

 

Looking at the warranty doc "48V Pylontech Battery Performance", they give the actual curves for comparison. 6 out of the 9 graphs contain reference to temperature (25 degrees), especially the last 4.48V Pylontech Battery Performance 0320.pdf

This is one of them, "Cycle life vs temperature":

 

Then we come to the brochure. Low voltage energy storage system 2019.pdf

Pylontech make it very clear that cycle life (upon which the warranty is based) has a distinct relationship with temperature. Even the design life is linked.

 

Edited June 21, 20214 yr by YellowTapemeasure
clarity

21 minutes ago, Vassen said:

So are you suggesting that non-pylontech batteries are not affected by temperature or if you run them at -10 degrees Celsius or 50 degrees celsius, that the manufacturer will still guarantee the lifespan / cycles at standard test condition?
 

 

Strawman.

Everyone knows that temperatures affect lithium-based batteries. You need to read what I stated very carefully. At the risk of repeating myself, a quick comparison of warranties (yes, in this thread) revealed that Pylontech warranties are very prescriptive and tightly defined in comparison to their peers.

But since you have broached the subject, if you do some research, you will note that NMC and LFP batteries actually do perform slightly differently, and it does involve temperature. 

 

22 minutes ago, YellowTapemeasure said:

Strawman.

Everyone knows that temperatures affect lithium-based batteries. You need to read what I stated very carefully. At the risk of repeating myself, a quick comparison of warranties (yes, in this thread) revealed that Pylontech warranties are very prescriptive and tightly defined in comparison to their peers.

But since you have broached the subject, if you do some research, you will note that NMC and LFP batteries actually do perform slightly differently, and it does involve temperature. 

 

Hubble did testing on the NMC cells vs LFP cells and what they found is that the resistance in the LFP cells are 2ohms vs 0.4ohms on the NMC. Higher resistance means higher temps which maybe the reason why LFP batteries have stricter temperature requirements. 

11 minutes ago, Leshen said:

Hubble did testing on the NMC cells vs LFP cells and what they found is that the resistance in the LFP cells are 2ohms vs 0.4ohms on the NMC. Higher resistance means higher temps which maybe the reason why LFP batteries have stricter temperature requirements. 

That's interesting.

But generally speaking, NMC outperform LFP in colder temperatures (under 25 degrees C).

Edited June 21, 20214 yr by YellowTapemeasure

Thank you for the inputs. Really informative thread. Guess we are back to comparing VW beetles and other favourite cars

Does however remind me to keep battery installation area as cold as possible.( i.e. closer to ambient)
Does make me wonder about winter nights (which does go below 25). should i give my pylons a blanky?

5 minutes ago, Vassen said:

Okay, let’s avoid the name calling and getting this thread locked as well. 🤣 
 

Im really interested here and looking at this from an open mind not trying to promote Pylontech or put down Hubble. 
 

I would like to discuss based on actual data and not people’s claimed “vast experience and knowledge” which is anyway questionable. 
 

Yes, the pylontech documents is very descriptive and prescriptive. In comparison, the Hubble is not very which means that it’s also open to interpretation. 
 

For example, pylontech provides graphs of the expected performance of the battery at various conditions. For example, from the graph that you posted above, I can deduce, that if I run the battery at 30 degrees, I can achieve between 5700 and 5800 cycles. On the other hand, if I look at the Hubble warranty documents, all they say is “The cycle life is negatively affected by temperature above 25 degrees and cannot be guaranteed if the battery is operated in temperatures exceeding 25 degrees Celsius”. I fail to understand how this statement by Hubble is any better. To me it’s a lot worse as it means that if I operate the battery at 30 degrees, Hubble provides no guarantee of any sort. 
 

Then I see a statement that “The integrated BMS module is designed to last 15 years, however a standard 2 year warranty is provided for the BMS and all related probes and sensors. So what exactly does the 10 Year warranty cover? Is it thr BYD cells only? Pylontech does it have such specifications on their BMS or none that I have seen in the warranty. 
 

For complete of grid deployments, hubble require that the battery be fully charged once every 14 days. This means that if we have 2 weeks of bad weather and the batteries don’t get fully charged, they claim the cell cycle life can no longer be guaranteed. Pylontech on the other hand requires the batteries to be cycled daily so this is a sort of similar limitation to the hubble as they don’t specify what a cycle is. 

Hubble warranty is from the date of purchase while Pylontech is date of install or 6 months after date of purchase whichever comes first. 
 

Hubble states that the battery is not defective unless it fails to deliver 50% or less than it’s rated capacity during the warranty period. My interpretation of this is that if I buy a new battery and it gives me 60% of its rated capacity on day 1, I cannot state that the battery is faulty. That in my opinion is rather harsh. 
 

Your comments! 
 

Again, I want to reiterate that I am not trying to start another argument about this and am hoping for a civilized discussion about it. If you can’t be civilized, please don’t respond. I have quoted from the latest Hubble warranty document dated 6th of May 2021  

 

Hi Vassen. 
 

Have you did a warranty claim or know of anyone that did a warranty claim on a defective Pylontech and if so, what was the experience like?

Edited June 21, 20214 yr by Leshen
Spellcheck

19 minutes ago, Vassen said:

Okay, let’s avoid the name calling and getting this thread locked as well. 🤣 
 

When I stated "Strawman", I was not name-calling. I was referring to your strawman argument, which apart from being fallacious, isn't very civil and makes the discussion go downhill very quickly.   

1 hour ago, Leshen said:

Hubble did testing on the NMC cells vs LFP cells and what they found is that the resistance in the LFP cells are 2ohms vs 0.4ohms on the NMC. Higher resistance means higher temps which maybe the reason why LFP batteries have stricter temperature requirements. 

You are right, lower resistance means less power wastage, less energy loss when charging or discharging, especially in high temperatures.

NMC technlogy has certainly advanced a lot, if I look at KOKAM NMC modules, they have cycle lives of between 8000-12000 @1C (@25 degrees +- 3 degrees). Certainly astonishing.

Edited June 21, 20214 yr by YellowTapemeasure

8 minutes ago, Vassen said:

But Again, I would like to keep the discussion based on the documentation provided by both manufacturers. This is a legal document and the basis of a warranty claim. If you have a good relationship with Hubble then it’s obvious that you will get a better service. It doesn’t mean that the next person will get the same treatment. 

I asked about your experience as you seem to be a stickler for warranties. I do have an excellent relationship with Hubble as do all installers therefore the onus is on the reseller or installer to pass down that service to the end user. Hubble will not deal with end users as does Pylontech so that last statement of yours is totally false. 

 

12 minutes ago, Vassen said:

Lastly, if the service/quality is so good, I don’t understand why do they need to include all these limitations I pointed above. Most concerning is the 2 year warranty on the BMS which is the only thing that they have designed by themselves. 

The BMS is produced in China. Hubble programs the BMS here in SA. And yes, the quality is great. Have a look at the pics and video link I posted in another thread. 

 

16 minutes ago, Vassen said:

Hubble is new in the market and it makes sense that they want to impress but when they become more popular and more people use them, they will also see more returns and more issues. At that point in time, these exclusions become more important As they have no legal obligation as these exclusions are specifically stated in the warranty documents. 

Well currently Hubble sells more batteries than Pylontech so that would currently make them more popular. As I said many times before, I have never had a single issue with any of the Hubble’s I installed. 

19 minutes ago, Vassen said:

 

No, I have not done a warranty claim as I have not had any issues with my 2x US3000B, nor with a mixed US3000B / US3000C bank, not with my current US3000C bank. I also don’t know anyone from the many people that do have pylontech batteries that have needed to do a warranty claim. 

There are a few posts on the forum where members/guests have issues with their Pylontechs. I don’t see you giving input on those threads. 

35 minutes ago, Leshen said:

For complete of grid deployments, hubble require that the battery be fully charged once every 14 days. This means that if we have 2 weeks of bad weather and the batteries don’t get fully charged, they claim the cell cycle life can no longer be guaranteed. Pylontech on the other hand requires the batteries to be cycled daily so this is a sort of similar limitation to the hubble as they don’t specify what a cycle is. 

It’s well known what a cycle is regarding a battery. How will you cycle a Pylontech daily with 2 weeks of bad weather in an off grid install?

16 minutes ago, Vassen said:

Okay. I give up.
 

I guess quoting statements from Hubble documentation is not the right way to do this. Seems peoples opinions and experiences are a far better way to interpret product quality and warranty expectations. 🤷‍♂️

I don't think that we are going to succeed. We can argue until the cows come home, one cannot get scientific truth out of documents which have been drawn up for a completely different purpose, in this case by lawyers. Rubbish in, rubbish out.

To have a reasonable science-based debate on them would be fruitless. All that we can do is read them, comprehend what they are saying, and then each must use their own good judgement, and draw their own conclusions.

Why does nobody discuss other batteries... Shoto, Dyness, Musteks Dyness copy.... Etc etc? 

 

Kinda boring that its always Pylontech vs Hubble?! 

Oh here we go again. 

14 minutes ago, Vassen said:

 

I’ve come to realize that it’s a pointless discussion. It doesn’t matter what’s written in black and white on official manufacturer documentation. By quoting data from these documents, you get accused of making up stuff. 😂 When discussing a certain aspect of a battery and some shortcomings are pointed out, people try to shift the conversation to something else. 

What’s most important when analyzing a battery is peoples perception of that battery. Talking about facts is a waste of time. Oh, and facts are only facts when it suites some people. 
 

Lastly, the lesser documentation and specifications a battery has, the better the battery is as it means there isn’t much limitations. You can also use any documentation from a manufacturer to state your case, even if it’s not related to the battery in question and this changes whether you are trying to speak for or against a brand. 

 

Well said. It becomes pointless when you only have experience with a single battery brand and nothing else. 

Seems like I missed out on a great Discussion sofar many valid points mentioned sofar.. however the most important thing for me is what happens after the warranty is over will I still be able to have my Pylontech / Hubble /Blue Nova / Revov etc serviced repaired or refurbished? 

1 hour ago, Boerseun said:

Seems like I missed out on a great Discussion sofar many valid points mentioned sofar.. however the most important thing for me is what happens after the warranty is over will I still be able to have my Pylontech / Hubble /Blue Nova / Revov etc serviced repaired or refurbished? 

The issue is, no matter what is said, people will believe whatever they want to. Almost like the flat earth soceity. So as @Vassen says, it’s a pointless discussion. 

Edited June 23, 20214 yr by Leshen

On 2021/06/09 at 3:09 PM, Leshen said:

Still waiting for your reply from Inverter Warehouse.

 

On 2021/06/09 at 3:23 PM, Leshen said:

Thanks. Will be nice to hear what they say about pairing. Did you read what Victron says about pairing their inverters with Pylontech? 

Late response: but they finally responded 

[email protected]

No this wont

Pylon and Growatt has communication between one another they do work together just get a good installer please

Thank you

 

Short story, if you have your BMS connected, using one Pylontec US2000 with a 5Kw inverter will not void your warranty. Two of my suppliers confirmed that in writing. 🥳

On 2021/06/21 at 3:59 PM, ErwinK said:

Ola sir.  Can you maybe link the Pylontech warranty you are referring to?

The document i have (attached), only refers to ambient temperature as per manual (which is 50deg)

Testing is limited to 25 deg +- degree, but not everyday usage.

thx!

The daily usage thing is a headache  -> wanted to phase in my solar install, with inverter plus batteries first, then solar later. Can i request eskom to do phase 1 loadshedding everyday for the next 3 years?

daily usage is a strange term however. What happens if you go on holiday and switch everything off , hypothetically, for three weeks?

Pylontech_product_warranty_US serie-EU_2020 Oct.pdf 448.19 kB · 11 downloads

Lol. Sorry for bringing up an old post. 
 

it just dawned on me that the comment regarding Eskom, and one stage of load shedding per day - well, it didn’t age well 😂

On 2021/06/04 at 7:30 PM, phidz said:

LBSA claim 7000 cycles at 100% DOD at 0.5C 🤷🏿‍♂️

I definitely have my reservations of 100% DoD at whatever C-rating. I would, at best stick to about 80-90% DoD. Next question would be warranty issues... who do you go to and will the company be there at those expected lengths of time. A warranty is only as good as the company continuing to be operational and do your very best to look for the very small fine print as most manufacturers are loath to own up to warranty issues or unlikely to revert back to you in time, more so as sales are outstripping after-sales and backup.