Abysmal performance of batteries - what now?!

[WildM]

Hi everyone.

I am completely new on the forum and doing my research to ensure that we don’t waste money (specifically on the batteries) whilst we embark on this solar journey.
 

So far, we have had 5 solar companies come to our house in JHB to quote on a solar system and I am yet to find people who will perform a proper needs analysis and not simply tell you to go with Sunsynk batteries and inverter because that is ‘what everyone else has’.
 

I am mostly worried about the reliability of the batteries we purchase and the after sales service. After reading this article https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/battery-testing-final-report/ , I am worried that most of the batteries being recommended to us by these guys are going to go down the same path of doom as the majority of the batteries mentioned in this report. 

We have settled on an 8KW Deye inverter and JA solar panels to match and have decided to prioritize having more solar panels installed for now than go crazy on the batteries since we both work from home and use electricity mostly during daylight hours. We also have no problem changing our behavior if it means saving money. 
 

We have been recommended the following batteries so far:

Volta, Evo, Revov, Hubble, Sunsynk, Dyness, Greenrich, BYD.

Strangely, none of these guys have recommended/quoted on Pylontechs. One of the guys who came to see us recommended Voltas/Evos (despite there being no reviews or much on the internet about these batteries) over Pylontechs. This now blows my mind after looking at these battery test results. 
 

Have any of you had experience with any of these brands/had these batteries installed for a while and can vouch for any of them? Or experienced the after sales service from any of them?

Help/opinions/advice would be greatly appreciated! I don’t want to make a R30k+ mistake. 

 

 

 

 

[Nicholas Strachan]

I would avoid Hubble. I had major issues as did other people (some folk have hassle free hubbles).Their service etc is shocking

[Nexuss]

If i were a gambling man i would maybe try the Sunsynk batteries but i am not so Pylontech all the way. Also look at the Freedom Won lite range and Solar MD if you want to support local.

[zsde]

Another option of late is Esener which prides itself as a local company too. https://www.esener.co.za/lithium.html

 

Edited March 25, 2023 by zsde

[Peter V]

I personally have a Freedom Won Lite 10/8 and so far no issues. My word of caution - the cheaper batteries like Revov have second life cells (normally harvested from old electric vehicle batteries).

There is a lot of hype around Sunsynk but no really bad press, so possibly not a bad bet.

[Nexuss]

15 minutes ago, Peter V said:

cheaper batteries like Revov have second life cells

They also make batteries with new cells ,they state quite clearly which are new and which are second life which is nice.

[Peter V]

Another caution. Ensure that your inverter supports your battery completely without your installer needing to employ work-arounds. I know many forum members have the know how to live with this kind of situation but I personally want the comfort of seemless system integration.

[Peter V]

1 minute ago, Nexuss said:

They also make batteries with new cells ,they state quite clearly which are new and which are second life which is nice.

Purely citing an example. Revov are clear in their spec, others are not.

[WildM]

Just now, Peter V said:

Another caution. Ensure that your inverter supports your battery completely without your installer needing to employ work-arounds. I know many forum members have the know how to live with this kind of situation but I personally want the comfort of seemless system integration.

100% agree with you @Peter V. I worry about this because I would not know how to confirm/check this. I could ask and the installer might just tell me ‘yes the inverter supports the battery’, he performs a workaround and I would never know! Is there a simple way to check this using the data sheets of the inverter/batteries? 

[John2]

@Reet my 2C with be support ,if support is available locally and and reputable company then I with go for that I say the most important things is if the battery had to pickup and issue can it be sorted out locally and not get the run around i know hubble, pylontech, greenrich, revo ,byd  and Freedom won have local support.

[zsde]

3 hours ago, Nicholas Strachan said:

Their service etc is shocking

and that's the crux of the matter.
The proof is in the guarantee. In the battery space it seems that most of them it's not worth the paper it's written on. The guarantee has become a document to protect the distributor, not the consumer. 
Ultimately it's a choice you have to make and it's no different to a choice you make/made when you buy your vehicle. There is the opinion of the masses, but also the exception of those that have had either a bitter experience or those that had a stellar experience, no matter the brand.

[Nicholas Strachan]

6 minutes ago, zsde said:

and that's the crux of the matter.
The proof is in the guarantee. In the battery space it seems that most of them it's not worth the paper it's written on. The guarantee has become a document to protect the distributor, not the consumer. 
Ultimately it's a choice you have to make and it's no different to a choice you make/made when you buy your vehicle. There is the opinion of the masses, but also the exception of those that have had either a bitter experience or those that had a stellar experience, no matter the brand.

Spot on.My hubble has been behaving since it was fixed ha ha

[mzezman]

This is a tricky subject - for every "ï have bad service / experience with X brand" you will find a "mine work great for x years." The biggest challenge is that many of these haven't been around long enough to form an emperical decision. Reports like the one you cited help but also those tests were done how mny years ag? Tech has moved on

The older Hubbles (AM-2) had issues and they are also NMC based which is great for cars but maybe not so great for ESS. Their newer AM5/Am10s are LiFoP04 which are a better known quantity. Pylontech and Dyness are very similar as Dyness was formed by ex Pylon engineers. Both very stable brands. FreedomWon are a bit pricier but haven't heard of any issues. The you get Greenrich, Shoto etc 

There is a bit of taking a leap of faith you do when choosing these items - best you can do is get ass much info as possible.

FWIW i have been using 2xDyness A48100 since Nov 2021 with absolutely no issues. Bought a 3rd and should have it installed in the next week. Would i buy Dyness again - definitely, But i am just a sample size of 1 

[FixAMess]

Hi,

you are correct in being overwhelmed with all the info out there and what is the "correct" battery and Inverter.

The flavour of the day is definitely sunsync and in all honesty, it is a good choice, 1 of many, for the average home. 8kW is a lot for a home bt everybody seems to insist that 8kW is the way to go.

Consider this; the 8kW is what the inverter can take from the sun/panels (DC) and convert to AC. You will only get the full 8kW at noon (if your panels face N)  and you have approximately 10kW of panels. You will get a bell curve of solar production from 6am to 6pm (location dependent) in summer, starting from zero and increasing, then decreasing. To provide 8kW of power from batteries you will need at least a 10kW battery bank (and that will only last you an hour or so)..Rule of thumb, in winter you will get production of 4*installed solar capacity and in summer 5+...E.g You have 6kW panels, in summer you'll get 30+ kWh of power/day, in winter 20kwh/day, again depends where you are and the angle of your panels to the sun.

The point is 8kW is a lot for a household, I have  5kW system and it does what is required with the panels and battery combination I have...The inverter capacity, PV panels kW, battery bank must all align to give your 8kW. If you don't plan to run your geyser, washing machine during load-shedding then 8kW is probably not required.

One should consider the following when buying an inverter; (this is for the average guy, non technical and just wants a system that does the job with minimal fuss)

1) After sales support

2) Functionality (does it do what YOU require)

3) Ease of use

4) Talk natively to the battery

The above is what the average person requires from an inverter. I'll bet that MOST users don't want anything more than an inverter that allows the following;

1) Blend PV, battery, Escom

2) Talk natively to their battery

3) Maybe configure the inverter to charge/discharge from battery at specific times

4) Configure inverter to provide PV to the entire house but NOT feed back to the grid.

 

The sunsync/Deye does all this, but so does the Goodwe, Kodak etc...There are many out there that do a good job.

The next issue is cost...Whatever you  are prepared to pay will depend on the inverter you get.

As for batteries which are the most expensive part of the entire setup, consider the below, and remember, once you have 1 battery, you will want more and you are pretty much locked into the same battery supplier if you don't want to make config changes to your system.

E.g. Pylontechs are simple to augment. Batteries talk to each other, use the same cables, plug and play. Simple! To add a different battery to the pylontechs will require some work and they probably will not talk to each other so you will have issues with knowing exactly what your SOC/DoD is.

Batteries;

1) Must be able to talk to the inverter natively. Look on the forum, its full of people trying to connect some obscure battery to their inverter. It becomes an issue of charge, discharge profiles, warranty issues,no support etc...What a mess!

2) Must have a good BMS (difficult to tell unfortunately) 

3) Must have after sales support (and we are starting to see the issues with warranties now)

Frankly, batteries are unfortunately not required to go through a thorough testing process, certification in SA before they can be sold, so there are a lot of "new" battery brands out there that seem inexpensive, and therefore very enticing to a cash strapped buyer.

Pylontechs are well tested, seem reliable but are relatively expensive when considering the other brands, but you cant go wrong with pylontechs...Its a safe-to- buy battery.

I'm sure you'll get many more views, many criticizing my above opinion, so yes, its a difficult choice..

 

 

[P1000]

2 hours ago, zsde said:

Another option of late is Esener which prides itself as a local company too. https://www.esener.co.za/lithium.html

 

Those batteries look like white label Chinese made batteries:

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/51-2V-Cheap-Price-Hot-Sale_1600684224999.html

I don't doubt that it's a local company, just like Hubble...

Edited March 25, 2023 by P1000

[Piper]

Hi Reet

I've been running Pylontechs over a year now and battery health sits at 98%, wich puts it on par with the 20%projected loss for 10 years. It just works.

If you ask me there is only one brand you should look at.

 

[Bobster.]

5 hours ago, Reet said:

We have settled on an 8KW Deye inverter and JA solar panels to match and have decided to prioritize having more solar panels installed for now than go crazy on the batteries since we both work from home and use electricity mostly during daylight hours. We also have no problem changing our behavior if it means saving money. 
 

We have been recommended the following batteries so far:

Volta, Evo, Revov, Hubble, Sunsynk, Dyness, Greenrich, BYD.

If you're going to go for a Deye, you might as well go for a Sunsynk. The internals are the same, the difference is in the firmware.

And then if you do that, you should think about the Sunsynk battery. If you pair the two, Sunsynk extend the warranty on the inverter (given, I am guessing, that the installer is certified by them). 

There are a lot of batteries on the market right now because demand has surged. It will take any new brand a while to get a good name, and a while longer to get a bad name.

Pylontech seems to be a very high quality, very reliable battery that have been around for years. One thing I believe needs attention is the combination of inverter and battery. EG if you buy Revovs you are really only going to have proper communications between batteries and inverter if you are running Sunsynk or Victron. In some cases the intelligence is built into the battery - my Goodwe inverter has no preset for Freedom Won batteries, but the Freedom Won knows all about the Goodwe. 

The point I'm getting to making is that there's very few inverters that won't talk to a Pylontech battery. 

BUT a big talking point at the moment is 1C batteries. That means that if you battery is rated at 200Ah, you can completely charge it or completely discharge it at 200A IE in 1 hour. (if it's true 1C, some makers play games with that definition). You probably don't want to discharge your battery completely in 1 hour, and certainly not on a regular basis, but the advantage of such a battery is that it can better handle sudden spikes in demand. 

Most Plyontechs are 0.5C, so less able to handle sudden large demands for power. This may or may not be a big problem for you in real life.
 

Edited March 25, 2023 by Bobster.

[PowerUser]

4 hours ago, Nexuss said:

If i were a gambling man i would maybe try the Sunsynk batteries but i am not so Pylontech all the way. Also look at the Freedom Won lite range and Solar MD if you want to support local.

Pylontechs are expensive option because of their inferior 0.5C rating compared to other brands.

[Piper]

45 minutes ago, PowerUser said:

Pylontechs are expensive option because of their inferior 0.5C rating compared to other brands.

It's kinda sad when people ONLY look at C ratings when they pick a battery brand.

Edited March 25, 2023 by Piper

[PowerUser]

11 minutes ago, Piper said:

It's kinda sad when people ONLY look at C ratings when they pick a battery brand.

At the end of the day, one has to spend double the money with 0.5C battery to match the capacity of the inverter. 

[WildM]

So I will essentially be paying almost double  the amount of money for Pylontechs to get the equivalent rate of discharge of other 1C batteries? 
 

To throw another spanner in the works though, a lot of these 1C battery data sheets still suggest that you should stick to a 0.5C rate of discharge? So that pretty much means you might as well go for Pylontechs? Or am I misunderstanding what these data sheets are suggesting?

[abd7]

Go sunsynk inverter with sunsynk batteries to match. No issues and 10 year warranty on all items, with local support 

[Energy-Jason]

13 minutes ago, abd7 said:

Go sunsynk inverter with sunsynk batteries to match. No issues and 10 year warranty on all items, with local support 

Sunsynk also supported by segen. I think Its a great setup with peace of mind. 

Jay

[Steve87]

Having never installed a Sunsynk battery nor ever seen one. I belong to an installers support group & many installers struggling to pair them when there is more than 1. The inverter has certain firmware & a logger that they can offer remote firmware updates. The batteries, well, that is where the major issues are currently. They work standalone. But if you buy 2 & they have different firmware now you in a spot of bother. 

My honest take on this whole thread: 

Buy 1C if you can afford it. 

The 10 year warranty extension I'm not so sure we will be using 48V in a decade from now for home installations. I think High Voltage is the next chapter in domestic solar. 

I can't talk for all brands but just my humble unbiased opinion. 

[zsde]

3 hours ago, P1000 said:

I don't doubt that it's a local company, just like Hubble...

When they first appeared I was actually convinced that they source their batteries from the same crowd in China that supply the Hubble.