Charging inverters during peak could push up demand by one stage of load shedding: Eskom | Business (news24.com)

I just posted this link because it resonates with some of my own feelings about folks with solar and battery inverters installed. Others would disagree, but I feel that anyone with an alternative supply should be on a time-of-use tariff, even if you don't have panels, even if you're just charging batteries after loadshedding.

I've seen a few times someone will post his Sunsynk/Deye inverter's time-of-use schedule, and it shows that the person is charging his inverter from the grid right during the evening peak, right when power availability is at its weakest. The sensible thing would be for the good of all to charge up before loadshedding, but only during off-peak times when the demand on the grid is low. Not when Eskom has to burn diesel to keep the lights on.

The best solution, as I said, is to enforce a time-of-use billing structure that would force solar inverter users to pay at rates in line with supply and demand. The benefit on the flip side is that you would have access to low-cost energy to bulk-charge your batteries at night and on weekends. Didn't read the article, by the way, just the headline, and went off on a tangent.

 

Agree. I think people should prioritise battery charging early in the day 9-12, then run your high loads if your solar permits 12-4, , and then if loadshedding happens run off batteries 4-9pm and only top off batteries if really required through the night. Otherwise wait until the next day to top up with solar.

Eskom are welcome to incentivise the behaviour change, and I'll gladly take advantage of that (which is exactly time of use tariff as mentioned above, though I know zero about whether this is available to us lowly individuals).

Without that, I'll not be lifting a finger to help a failed SoE out of the goodness of my heart.

46 minutes ago, reapster said:

Eskom are welcome to incentivise the behaviour change, and I'll gladly take advantage of that (which is exactly time of use tariff as mentioned above, though I know zero about whether this is available to us lowly individuals).

Without that, I'll not be lifting a finger to help a failed SoE out of the goodness of my heart.

I have to agree. So while we helping ourselves by having PV systems they want high fees because we use less power and help them and the country. Then they want to spend big on rural areas to buy votes. Not have a will to improve and create better systems. 

Here i feel I will use what I need when it suits me and change based of the time of use. Somehow I don't belief in just want want want from others. It has to be a give and take plan. 

2 hours ago, GreenFields said:

Charging inverters during peak could push up demand by one stage of load shedding: Eskom | Business (news24.com)

I just posted this link because it resonates with some of my own feelings about folks with solar and battery inverters installed. Others would disagree, but I feel that anyone with an alternative supply should be on a time-of-use tariff, even if you don't have panels, even if you're just charging batteries after loadshedding.

Is a TOU tariff available? COJ offer something they call "time of use" but it's really just paying a little more in the winter (irrespective of time of day) and a little less in the summer. So it's seasonal, not time of day.

In much of Europe they have true TOU tariffs, and people run their dishwashers in the wee hours to take advantage. 

My gut reaction was that TOU will just move the peak, but it can only move it so far because families have to be fed and folks have to have a bath or shower, and then they all go to sleep.

So I don't believe that it's just folks with an alternative supply that should be on a TOU tariff. Everybody should be. 

Once there's no load shedding of course. Because when you're without power for 10, 11 hours a day, you have to charge and cook and make hot when you can.
 

2 hours ago, GreenFields said:

I've seen a few times someone will post his Sunsynk/Deye inverter's time-of-use schedule, and it shows that the person is charging his inverter from the grid right during the evening peak, right when power availability is at its weakest. The sensible thing would be for the good of all to charge up before loadshedding, but only during off-peak times when the demand on the grid is low. Not when Eskom has to burn diesel to keep the lights on.

Yes. I sometimes have to charge up in the evening, but I try to avoid peak times, and I try to wait 30 minutes after power is restored. So far I'm able to do that, my battery has always lasted long enough.

I wonder how much of a problem these trolley inverters cause. Their charge current isn't very high. Though I suppose if you have enough of them, AND geysers etc.

I have heard tales of people loading the oven and turning it on whilst there's shedding, so that supper starts cooking as soon as possible. There would be a lot less surges on restoration if people would just turn their geysers and stoves off, then turn them back on a few minutes (or more if they can hold out) after load shedding. But asking people to do that won't go down very well. 

Edited May 25, 20233 yr by Bobster.
is/isn't

It's a catch 22 situation.

During the lower stages of loadshedding (2 and below), it might be possible to defer charging from the grid to a later time most days.

However during something like Stage 6 you are out several times a day, sometimes with sessions spaced out giving only 1 or 2 hours break between sessions. How do you expect someone, especially those without solar or those without significantly overspecced battery banks to not charge up before hand or in between?

The real solution here is for government/Eskom to offer proper rebates on off-grid equipment to encourage people to add solar/oversize their storage.

Edited May 25, 20233 yr by Acheron

I think if Eskom has any problem with people charging their inverters they should sort out load shedding. Otherwise they should shut up and deal with it.

Good days, when Solar dips Im on Eskom from 5pm to 8pm. I then loadshed myself until 10am next morning.

 

I changed my battery charge to solar Only, but if a dark rainy day comes I might need some assistance to charge up.

 

Eskom is the sole reason for people having backup, so if they want to be even remotely angry they need to go look in the nirror, I cant give a toot for their woes!

A hypothetical situation. Say a charismatic person via the media groups as well as business decide to do the right thing what we have got to see all the time-a strike. 

A call is made that say on Wednesday 31 May at 12h all PV systems are to be switched off to prove to Eskom they needs the support of all users. 

Imagine the impact on this country! 

Nothing that they can do to prepare for such a event and we have a blackout. 

Edited May 25, 20233 yr by Scorp007

Due to the load shedding, let's be honest (they own creation) they forced South African to (make a plan) so, lots of people have installed UPS's they need to be recharged after every 4 hours of load shedding. EishKom fix you Shi^&%^t and that will never happen.

A quick look at my inverter's battery stats shows that I lose about 10% during a charge/discharge cycle.  By using the grid to recharge batteries we're adding an 10% additional overhead to the grid.  I have no idea how many households are in that situation, but that could also add a stage if there are enough such installations around.

I suspect that also explains the reasoning behind government's plan to only incentivise PV.  Doing anything else adds to their problem.

Not pointing fingers, just stating the facts...

16 hours ago, GreenFields said:

Charging inverters during peak could push up demand by one stage of load shedding: Eskom | Business (news24.com)

I just posted this link because it resonates with some of my own feelings about folks with solar and battery inverters installed. Others would disagree, but I feel that anyone with an alternative supply should be on a time-of-use tariff, even if you don't have panels, even if you're just charging batteries after loadshedding.

I've seen a few times someone will post his Sunsynk/Deye inverter's time-of-use schedule, and it shows that the person is charging his inverter from the grid right during the evening peak, right when power availability is at its weakest. The sensible thing would be for the good of all to charge up before loadshedding, but only during off-peak times when the demand on the grid is low. Not when Eskom has to burn diesel to keep the lights on.

The best solution, as I said, is to enforce a time-of-use billing structure that would force solar inverter users to pay at rates in line with supply and demand. The benefit on the flip side is that you would have access to low-cost energy to bulk-charge your batteries at night and on weekends. Didn't read the article, by the way, just the headline, and went off on a tangent.

 

This is probably a pre-cursor to introducing some new solar tax. The looting continues.

The interesting thing for me is that the media attention has been on PV, but if Eskom are seeing this difference then a lot of inverter + battery system have been sold. Householders have gone for security over savings. Which brings us back to incentives. Part of the thinking, surely, is that some households will upgrade to PV. 

PV is the win for Eskom/Government because it actually removes load from the grid. 

So here my further thoughts.

I draw about 10-15kW from Solar, and also use solar to charge batts up, and run all heavy loads.

My Eskom consumption less than half.

If I hit a loadshed at night previously, eskom when back would charge.

Okay so any 2 hr nightly loadshed equates to about 500w - 600w per two hours.

So my 600w causes strain, but my removal of 10kw doesnt cause relief. They need to look at the flip side of their argument.

As stated earlier (by @Scorp007), if every PV user suddenly removes their PV for a day, and then add their PV back to eskom usage, mega chaos.

 

So swing it the way they want, only inverters, yes additional "maybe" strain, but they can thanks their backsides for the PV users, actually keeping the country from stage 8 or worse!

Edited May 25, 20233 yr by Eurard

22 hours ago, GreenFields said:

Charging inverters during peak could push up demand by one stage of load shedding: Eskom

This applies only to strict UPS like inverters. Solar PV systems, sufficient battery capacity provided, act in contrary, helping Eskom. My batteries are charged during the day with my system off grid, providing energy for the rest of the day. The geyser gets heated by its own thermal solar panel. Only if sun is insufficient I need recharge from grid during the night at low demand. Note I feed all consumers including cooking from the inverters - no non-essentials separation.

Think of all the additional income the ANC government is making from taxes on solar equipment and installations, diesel and petrol for generators etc etc - this whole thing is one massive scam🤣

12 minutes ago, Beat said:

This applies only to strict UPS like inverters. Solar PV systems, sufficient battery capacity provided, act in contrary, helping Eskom. My batteries are charged during the day with my system off grid, providing energy for the rest of the day. The geyser gets heated by its own thermal solar panel. Only if sun is insufficient I need recharge from grid during the night at low demand. Note I feed all consumers including cooking from the inverters - no non-essentials separation.

@Beat, agree with you 100%, my house also (no non essentials separation) however, I have to admit, since I've installed my system, I had to charge my batteries twice from grid, we had 12 hours of load shedding, very little thou. My system provides me with a daily average of 16 KW/H my home consumption is about 22 KW/H so I use about 4 KW/H from grid at night only. 

Edited May 26, 20233 yr by Antonio de Sa

12 hours ago, Eurard said:

So my 600w causes strain, but my removal of 10kw doesnt cause relief. They need to look at the flip side of their argument.

It's not what YOU do. They can't know that. They can see the overall effect. So you are shedding about 10kW of load, but for each one of you there are many people who have less sophisticated systems that just switch to charging mode (or have not been set otherwise) as soon as the grid comes back up. 

Plus on an overcast day you'll charge from the grid at some point.

On average, of course, you remove load. I used to consume (on average) 13 to 14 kWh a day. My average over the time I've had the system is about 2.45kWh - this includes multi-day overcast spells, and even then I am shedding 5 to 6 kWh. 

I don't believe that Eskom are in a situation where total load they service hasn't reduced. Most people with back up systems don't backup geysers and ovens. Batteries just store power for use when the grid is down, so the load for those backed up circuits actually goes up a little, but the household probably still sheds a bit overall. But what Eskom are seeing, it seems to me, is less saving than they originally could cause, and greater demand on restoration of power. Quite naturally they are trying to figure out why this is happening.

17 minutes ago, Beat said:

This applies only to strict UPS like inverters. Solar PV systems, sufficient battery capacity provided, act in contrary, helping Eskom.

I agree with you that PV helps Eskom (in one way, the flip side is that they reduce Eskom's income), but a lot of folks can't afford a full PV system or, as we often see on powerforum, are doing a phased install and are going for security first, savings later. All-in-one battery+inverter systems are being heavily marketed, and these are attractive to folks living in apartments or complexes or rented accomodation. I've been watching that market (not true! Facebook throws that market at me!) and the newer models feature much faster charging. So all of this adds up to Eskom seeing an increased demand immediately after restoration of power.

I've spoken before about the inverter I gave to my mother. The first night of load shedding on which her TV stayed on  resulted in several enquiries from people who had seen the glow of the TV set. Now that village is full of inverters & batteries. 

So this is why there's an incentive available for panels (for homes or for businesses), because that's what takes load off of the grid. The incentive is available not for entire systems, but for anybody putting up panels. IE to add PV to existing installs.

12 minutes ago, Bobster. said:

I agree with you that PV helps Eskom (in one way, the flip side is that they reduce Eskom's income), but a lot of folks can't afford a full PV system or, as we often see on powerforum, are doing a phased install and are going for security first, savings later. All-in-one battery+inverter systems are being heavily marketed, and these are attractive to folks living in apartments or complexes or rented accomodation. I've been watching that market (not true! Facebook throws that market at me!) and the newer models feature much faster charging. So all of this adds up to Eskom seeing an increased demand immediately after restoration of power.

I've spoken before about the inverter I gave to my mother. The first night of load shedding on which her TV stayed on  resulted in several enquiries from people who had seen the glow of the TV set. Now that village is full of inverters & batteries. 

So this is why there's an incentive available for panels (for homes or for businesses), because that's what takes load off of the grid. The incentive is available not for entire systems, but for anybody putting up panels. IE to add PV to existing installs.

Glow from Sewende Laan? LOL

Yup same with my mom, having an elder in the winter being in the dark, alone, husband recently passed, Eskom can go fly a kite.

 

2 hours ago, Bobster. said:

the flip side is that they reduce Eskom's income

When I wrote that I help Eskom, I meant it in the sense of reducing the load on the grid. But your thought is another issue altogether, a serious one. As a matter of fact the reduced income might incite municipalities and Eskom to compensate with increased tariffs. That in turn will make solar even more attractive. Even more people will go for solar, income will decline even more. We will come to the point that new homes must be built with solar systems from start as mandatory as sanitary installations.

The municipality of Mosselbay goes one step further and runs various alternative energy projects in an attempt to become independent from Eskom.

 

1 hour ago, Beat said:

When I wrote that I help Eskom, I meant it in the sense of reducing the load on the grid. But your thought is another issue altogether, a serious one. As a matter of fact the reduced income might incite municipalities and Eskom to compensate with increased tariffs. That in turn will make solar even more attractive. Even more people will go for solar, income will decline even more. We will come to the point that new homes must be built with solar systems from start as mandatory as sanitary installations.

The municipality of Mosselbay goes one step further and runs various alternative energy projects in an attempt to become independent from Eskom.

 

Well there must be a way around this, because it's happening all over the world. Family of mine in the UK and a friend in Belgium both have grid-tied systems installed by the municipality in Belgium, the electricity provider in the UK, AND they can sell excess back into the grid. So whoever supplies those two households with municipality must be taking multiple knocks - cost of the install, reduced consumption, credits they have to pay for sell-back. Yet they do it. 

I am guessing that in both cases it reduces their operating cost, or is seen as reducing the load they have to service. Though in both cases it would seem that this doesn't help during peak times - unless the suppliers have storage they can fill during the sunshine hours and discharge at the peaks.

This is why COCT can do the things they are doing: They have storage.

Edited May 26, 20233 yr by Bobster.
insert "power provider"

I paid for my system. I was tired of having to live my life according to this time share electricity scheme created solely by an inept and incapable government. What I do with my system has nothing to do with government or anyone else for that matter. I could not care less what the opinion of government or anyone else is on this matter. If government wants to have a say how I use my system, they should have paid for it.

Government aren't telling anybody what to do as far as I can see. Other than offering tax breaks on new PV panel installations. 

This is getting blown out of proportion. Eskom have said that they see a change in consumption, which they attribute to a much increased deployment of inverters. 

1 hour ago, Bobster. said:

Government aren't telling anybody what to do as far as I can see. Other than offering tax breaks on new PV panel installations. 

This is getting blown out of proportion. Eskom have said that they see a change in consumption, which they attribute to a much increased deployment of inverters. 

Perhaps not telling but asking us and blaming us for 1 stage higher LS. Thus with 4 hrs between cycles they want us to sit in the dark when the next stage starts or during it.