24 minutes ago, plonkster said:

There is also something I realised that really should be said about hybrid inverters, and that is that the (less than) 20ms transfer time really doesn't apply. A Multi running grid-parallel has the transfer switch closed. When the power fails, all it has to do is open the transfer switch (to disconnect the grid side), the output is already connected to the inverter and there is no transfer time at all. So another reason why manufacturers might not be going the online-UPS route... is because they are way past it already.

 

It all boils down to price and application. e.g. Nigeria where grid-tied is not really a viable option due to missing grid regulation and infrastructure.

They are targeting mission-critical applications primarily like ATMs, digital signage where efficiency is not a real concern. Imagine if you have 70 % saving in deployment cost per ATM !!

The other battery-less 5KW inverter is what piques my interest. the biggest advantage is you can use crappy /secondhand battries for applications like airconditioner loads without bothering about AH and C10 

 

Although I suspect even the Victron will keep on working after disconnecting the battery  but I dont want to try it with 2000 Euro ineverter 

 

1 minute ago, ghatikar said:

Although I suspect even the Victron will keep on working after disconnecting the battery  but I dont want to try it with 2000 Euro ineverter 

They usually shut down fairly quickly because the DC bus tends to sag too low and causes the Multi to switch off. But there is rarely any damage. Lithium batteries frequently open their protection devices for whatever reason, leaving the Multi and the solar chargers alone on the DC bus (and voltage spikes to 65V), but it doesn't cause any problems. Sometimes the CCGX even stays alive running happily off that battery-less bus.

You won't be able to push any power through there though.

2 hours ago, plonkster said:

... is because they are way past it already.

Probably, maybe. I'm not up to date on the latest ones.

What I do find interesting is that most solar inverters pass the Eskom as is, whereas a online inverter does not.

So it depends on your need and sensitivity of equipment plugged into a inverter, and whether that inverter is connected to Eskom.

2 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

What I do find interesting is that most solar inverters pass the Eskom as is, whereas a online inverter does not.

So it depends on your need and sensitivity of equipment plugged into a inverter, and whether that inverter is connected to Eskom. 

It's the most efficient way of doing it. Speaking at least for Victron equipment, they do disconnect the mains if it goes out of bounds (above 265V or below 180V, though this is configurable) and should be perfectly good for anything except the most sensitive of equipment.

That's not to dismiss the double-conversion idea. It's an easy way (at the cost of some efficiency) not to have a transfer switch, and it makes tying PV into the system really easy: The DC bus becomes the hub around which the entire system operates.

I seem to recall that in the past there was a DC bus thing used in some data centers, where your servers tied into a 48V rail. Made backup really easy: you could put the batteries directly on the rail. If you think about it... this is essentially no different.

9 hours ago, plonkster said:

When the power fails, all it has to do is open the transfer switch (to disconnect the grid side), the output is already connected to the inverter and there is no transfer time at all.

I've often wondered about that. Yes, there is no transfer time, but there may be a very similar effect. When the grid goes down, depending on where the disconnection happens, there could be a hundred houses of load at the AC input connection. So the AC input, which is initially still connected to the AC output, is close to a short circuit. So the output will go to zero volts until the inverter can disconnect the AC input. Disconnecting a relay might be a little faster than connecting, but it will still be of the order of 10 ms, I would think. But now, different to the non-hybrid setup, the inverter is working into a short circuit for that time, and the input relay opens under that overload situation. That has to be hard on those components. Meanwhile the load sees a similar drop in voltage. 

Have I got that wrong? 

11 hours ago, Coulomb said:

When the grid goes down, depending on where the disconnection happens, there could be a hundred houses of load at the AC input connection. So the AC input, which is initially still connected to the AC output, is close to a short circuit. So the output will go to zero volts until the inverter can disconnect the AC input

You've got it right. That is certainly what I observed with mine, that when there is a power failure the voltage does drop quite a bit. I don't think it goes quite to zero. I see lights dim and flicker, but the usual suspect (my Yamaha AV receiver) does not turn off and on like it does on a switchover. Whether it is better or worse than a transfer switch is something I'm not really qualified to answer and haven't investigated, but it does seem slightly better than a transfer.

On 2018/07/06 at 11:57 PM, Coulomb said:

I've often wondered about that. Yes, there is no transfer time, but there may be a very similar effect. When the grid goes down, depending on where the disconnection happens, there could be a hundred houses of load at the AC input connection. So the AC input, which is initially still connected to the AC output, is close to a short circuit. So the output will go to zero volts until the inverter can disconnect the AC input. Disconnecting a relay might be a little faster than connecting, but it will still be of the order of 10 ms, I would think. But now, different to the non-hybrid setup, the inverter is working into a short circuit for that time, and the input relay opens under that overload situation. That has to be hard on those components. Meanwhile the load sees a similar drop in voltage. 

Have I got that wrong? 

Despite asking repeatedly Victron has not satisfactorily replied to my queries on duty cycle of those contacts. I suspect the 100 Amp is nominal which means they may be rated different for different types of loads 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilization_categories

e.g. For example, the  Schneider LC1D18xx contactor is designed to control motors with a nominal current rating of 18 A (AC-3).
This contractor is capable of withstanding current peaks (~ 100 A) on starting, such as are typical on inductive machines like motors, without sustaining any damage.
It can also control resistance heaters for current ratings up to 32 A (AC-1). This load is resistive, hence there are no current peaks

On 2018/06/12 at 11:57 AM, Gnome said:

Hi all

Not sure if others have noticed, but Voltronic Power have released a new version of the Axpert inverters.

Anyone have one of these or know where they can be purchased from?

Hi Gnome,

 

did you find out where to purchase this unit and for how much?

On 2018/06/12 at 1:59 PM, pilotfish said:

But no parallel mode

Now you can parallel up to 9 units, this is a serious piece of kit! R10,500 for the 5kW and R8,000 for the 3kW (not sure why anyone would save a couple of pennies on the smaller unit).

Data sheet attached.

FCS-Axpert-King-3Kva-5Kva-Data-Sheet.pdf

I don't think the King and the VMIII is the same inverter. The VM-III has a transfer switch. The King is double-conversion. Visually they look very similar.

I wonder if the King has any hope of certification. Because it is double-conversion, you only need to prove your charger is not bi-directional.

Why keep on supporting a manufacturer who does not care, when all the help supplied by this site by good people for free - till they change their minds and move to other makes - keeps the inverters going?

Why is support and firmware not supplied by the manufacturer via their authorised qualified suppliers, or authorised repair centers (read authorised as they know what they are doing). Why does one want to save pennies, have after market firmware (again free by very good solid people - till they change brands), with speculation that mosfets are potentially blowing due to heat in SA, why save on a device that so far is not tested to be certified to connect to solar panels AND the grid at the same time in SA?

I'm not picking a fight, really want to know why, want to find out that one reason to swing me around, for I can save a LOT of money, but for the above reasons, that is suicide savings?

Edited August 12, 20187 yr by Guest

33 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Why keep on supporting a manufacturer who does not care,

Price - I found a German language Axpert thread over the weekend. It runs to 425 pages dwarfing the  92 page AEVA thread. So even some Germans have found the Axpert to their liking. This debate can go round in circles. I agree with you that if I was in a urban area I probably would not have an Axpert - its lack of hybrid capability of the original Axpert is to my mind a big issue. That been said I don't think I would have a Victron either. I would probably settle on a Goodwe.

 

13 minutes ago, Chris Hobson said:

That been said I don't think I would have a Victron either. I would probably settle on a Goodwe.

And Solis ... I am looking at them with big eyes.

1 hour ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Why keep on supporting a manufacturer who does not care, when all the help supplied by this site by good people for free - till they change their minds and move to other makes - keeps the inverters going?

Why is support and firmware not supplied by the manufacturer via their authorised qualified suppliers, or authorised repair centers (read authorised as they know what they are doing). Why does one want to save pennies, have after market firmware (again free by very good solid people - till they change brands), with speculation that mosfets are potentially blowing due to heat in SA, why save on a device that so far is not tested to be certified to connect to solar panels AND the grid at the same time in SA?

I'm not picking a fight, really want to know why, want to find out that one reason to swing me around, for I can save a LOT of money, but for the above reasons, that is suicide savings?

I think you need to realize you are a bit biased.

There are many manufacturers of cheap inverters and people aren't just jumping on that band-wagon.

The Axpert inverters are actually incredible reliable. The people with problems are a tiny fraction of the install base. And as I've said before, the install rate is high, so you are bound to see more faults reported online. More importantly, most issues that come to this forum are almost always new installs. Almost certainly 99% of those installs were botched because it is someone trying to DIY that doesn't even really understand the difference between parallel and series.

For those of us that have run the device for 3-5+ years without issues (which again is the vast majority), what do we get by switching brands?

Even those that fail after 3-5 years, which again is a minority, buying a new one makes sense just because it isn't like it was having problems constantly. It runs 100% one day it stopped working, replace, job done.

And assuming the failure is because of inferior quality is a bit of a presumption. Living in Jhb, your electric devices are as likely to break from Eskom screw up or lightning as it is from age. (I lived there until I was 25 so I know what it was like to come home finding some new electronic device broken because of whatever new awesome problem on the grid).

56 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

And Solis ... I am looking at them with big eyes.

The specks vs price looks interesting

https://thepowerstore.co.za/collections/inverters/products/solis-3-0kw-4g-dual-mppt-single-phase 

Also these also looking promising :

https://www.bundupower.co.za/solarongrid-single-single.php?mod=SL-TL3300T
 

What else is there on the market these days. Keep in mind that the fact that we have the Axperts is that they were , at one stage , the new kid on the block  

 

Edited August 12, 20187 yr by PaulF007
Just didnt want to post new one

Thank you @Gnome - good points raised. Only one reservation, irrespective of inverter make, there is a cost over and above any inverter, ito making any inverter legal. What that cost is, from my research, is against Voltronic at THIS point in time.

So forget Victron also. As my post after the one you commented on, at the time of posting, I did not mention Solis.

 

Just now, PaulF007 said:

The specks vs price looks interesting

Ditto! With a 5 year warranty and data logging all included at minuscule cost compared to other solutions AND it is on "The List".

 

So Gnome, here is my thinking, as this forum is a HUGE trove of information for newbies, give more options than JUST Axpert or Victron.
1) Deadline of 28 Feb 2019 to register. There is going to be a cost for that CoC, and it is not going to be cheap, even off-grid, for it is a whole new separate circuit.
2) Grid tied. There is going to be a lesser cost for CoC (per-approved inverter, existing CoC) plus cost of a Engineer signing off, got one at a VERY reasonable price.

And data is logged, less parts in the entire system, and it is legally connected.

Therein the "stone in the bush", ito why support a company that does not support you? :-) 

7 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Therein the "stone in the bush", ito why support a company that does not support you? :-) 

Some of the Voltronic devices are on that list. (Just saying)

I have my doubts whether the manufacturers are actually having the devices approved, in many cases probably large resellers.

Also I can't help but notice that all the approved devices expire end 2018 according to that list. What happens then? (serious question)

This whole registration thing is a huge financial scam by the Western Cape government IMO. They have admitted they are getting hit really hard by low power usage which is why we now pay an additional R150 per month, over and above electricity for the honor of being able to use Eskom.

Edited August 12, 20187 yr by Gnome

1 minute ago, Gnome said:

Also I can't help but notice that all the approved devices expire end 2018 according to that list. What happens then?

You have to buy one and get it installed before then, as the regulations have changed.

1 minute ago, Gnome said:

This whole registration thing is a huge financial scam by the Western Cape government IMO.

Nope, this thing is national. I posted on the other thread, Eskom / NERSA is behind it. They are backed by existing SA laws, not new ones just for solar. 

Generators have been installed for decades legally with now qualms, cheaply.

Fact that solar now has arrived, is drawing in the "sharks", as CoCT makes nothing if you register. Exorbitant costs involved goes to the electricians and engineers. CoCT makes nothing on the new meter you need. As a matter of interest, CoCT would like to buy from people having loads of solar panels on their homes. Problem is, current legislation prohibits them from buying anywhere else but Eskom. 

1 minute ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

You have to buy one and get it installed before then, as the regulations have changed.

And then? No more new installs or what? Where is the regulations post 2018?

Edited August 12, 20187 yr by Gnome

7 minutes ago, Gnome said:

They have admitted they are getting hit really hard by low power usage which is why we now pay an additional R150 per month ...

I support this, for it evens the playing field ito maintaining the regional grid here in CoCT supplied areas. It is new to us, yes, has been held back for they sold enough to not have to implement it. But the fixed fee is not new in SA. Other municipalities, Eskom, has had that charge as default for a long time now.

 

Just now, Gnome said:

And then?

If it is installed, and approved, before that date, it is legit thereafter till something changes on the installation I have been told.

1 minute ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

I support this

I pay R2k on property tax now each month (With this R150 extra). Some areas are under constant scrutiny for more money. Lots of people are leaving so there is a huge financial hole they need to fill (800k people have left in the last year according to reports, which is a huge tax payer hit).

It starts with R150 for "infrastructure" which isn't earmarked for power btw. That money is used elsewhere. Power was most municipalities no.1 income generator (no pun).

Try remember that when the next tax rolls in and then the next, until you finally don't support it anymore.

Just saying

3 minutes ago, Gnome said:

Try remember that when the next tax rolls in and then the next, until you finally don't support it anymore.

I chose which battles I enter into. R150 here, legal connection there, bleh. Whatever. Bring it on kinda attitude. Any time I chose, I will make a plan and boikot them.

More concerned about what SARS, ESKOM, Parliament, SAA, rating agencies, Repo without Compo ... i.e. what national Gov is doing, going to do, want to do and what they are NOT doing. 

Locally we can stand together and stop anything, even the R150. We did it with the massive proposed increases on water ... for which I am now paying R100 extra! If that was for desalination, deal, but it is not. Dammit. :-)

Yet we cannot do squat on a national level.

This legal requirement now to register (which is free) ... drop in the bucket compared to the rest of the problems.

Does anyone for one minute think that these imbeciles in government will be able to manage these new regulations?

They cant even catch a cold in winter....for crying out loud....

6 hours ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Why keep on supporting a manufacturer who does not care, when all the help supplied by this site by good people for free - till they change their minds and move to other makes - keeps the inverters going?

Why is support and firmware not supplied by the manufacturer via their authorised qualified suppliers, or authorised repair centers (read authorised as they know what they are doing). Why does one want to save pennies, have after market firmware (again free by very good solid people - till they change brands), with speculation that mosfets are potentially blowing due to heat in SA, why save on a device that so far is not tested to be certified to connect to solar panels AND the grid at the same time in SA?

I'm not picking a fight, really want to know why, want to find out that one reason to swing me around, for I can save a LOT of money, but for the above reasons, that is suicide savings?

Simple. Everyone cannot afford a Victron. Or don't want to pay that kind of money if it can be used elsewhere. And many people don't care much about this legislation either. How many people are in jail for smoking in public? And how many are in jail for not paying their e-toll? Or not paying fines received by post? Do you honestly think the big boys care? No, they just changed legislation to take 139 farms. So they will do what they want, when they want, and to whom they want. Maybe this scare tactic works and they make more money, maybe not. 

6 hours ago, Gnome said:

There are many manufacturers of cheap inverters and people aren't just jumping on that band-wagon.

That's another thing I've said for a while now. This inverter really is good when you compare it to all the other crap that comes out of that area of the world (Powerjack for example). It represents to me, in real-estate terms, the best house in a bad neighbourhood.

(And this is where people usually take me to task for painting an entire subcontinent with one brush :-) It's not the geography... it's just that an amazing array of real crap comes from that general area).

1 hour ago, SilverNodashi said:

Simple. Everyone cannot afford a Victron

That's the long and the short of it. If price wasn't an issue, everyone would be buying blue. But again... this isn't a Victron specific issue. Go and compare this to the entire array of choices available in our market. It's not that Victron is so expensive. Everything comparable is in the same ballpark, maybe 20% cheaper.

The design life of these inverters is 5-10 years. In Cape Town it is over though: We don't have that long.