CyberJoe Posted May 23, 2022 Share Posted May 23, 2022 This is the only way to learn, unfortunately some of the stuff is above the heads of some, so these interactions are the learning books! As far as I am concerned if you take the price and intended function into account the Voltronic inverter works just fine, but then you must remain within the set parameters, want to get a bit fancier with your setup, pick something else (the reason I am looking around) Steve87 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorp007 Posted May 23, 2022 Share Posted May 23, 2022 49 minutes ago, GreenFields said: I guess if you're fully off-grid then a generator input would come in handy for those extended cloudy periods. Wait for Eskom to implode, then it might be the next big thing. Not only when you off grid. Many installs are using a genny for charging lithiums real quick on the consecutive days of rain. We do get a number of days in summer where 1 would get as low as 10% from PV. Also during long failures due to having a higher load than the 2.5hrs of LS. A great feature on the Sunsynk which I only paid attention to this weekend is how you would input a wind system and input the rectified DC to the MPPT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve87 Posted May 23, 2022 Share Posted May 23, 2022 The Axpert/ Kodak can also have a split AC input via a separate transfer switch and that would come at a cost of less than R500. The feature the Sunsynk has over the Axpert is the blending ability of such. However, I still cannot see why blending would ever make for a viable option. To me either all Gene input or all Eskom input. Unless you have a fancy idea of a wind turbine, but apart from PE and the Western Cape I dont see a case anywhere else in SA. Like driving with Mudds on tar roads and never going on a dirt track. In my opinion, apart from the nice color display and touch screen interface the Sunsynk is in a different league. It all depends on your pocket. One is more expensive than the other due to many reasons. Marketing, support and the craze of Battery Comms etc. If an operator cannot install a battery under user settings and get a good tune out of them, then there is a serious lack of understanding. In this modern world of tech, its not enough to trust the computer to do everything without a fundamental understanding of what's going on behind the scenes. Installers and their understanding of the equipment is a whole other subject. Products like Solar Assistant make to declutter all the numbers and workings behind the scenes and the product support of many different brands including the Deye OEM and Sunsynk is growing world wide at a good rate. Maybe just maybe we can have one place to integrate the apple with the Pear because we live in a very divided world especially in the Comms and Protocol environment in the solar world. We are lucky though in our market, that there are options for every pocket size and choice. Beat 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beat Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 16 hours ago, Steve87 said: The Axpert/ Kodak can also have a split AC input via a separate transfer switch and that would come at a cost of less than R500. The feature the Sunsynk has over the Axpert is the blending ability of such. However, I still cannot see why blending would ever make for a viable option. To me either all Gene input or all Eskom input. Unless you have a fancy idea of a wind turbine, but apart from PE and the Western Cape I dont see a case anywhere else in SA. A more streamlined but probably more costly way to connect a "gene" would be with a 48V rectifier/battery charger to the battery terminals. No need of any change in the DB and to the inverter. I would connect a wind turbine the same way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorp007 Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 2 hours ago, Beat said: A more streamlined but probably more costly way to connect a "gene" would be with a 48V rectifier/battery charger to the battery terminals. No need of any change in the DB and to the inverter. I would connect a wind turbine the same way. What would a good 48V 1-2kw rectifier/charger cost? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilowatt Power Posted May 30, 2022 Share Posted May 30, 2022 On 2022/05/23 at 8:11 PM, Scorp007 said: A great feature on the Sunsynk which I only paid attention to this weekend is how you would input a wind system and input the rectified DC to the MPPT Have you come across any resource(s) that documents this feature in detail? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorp007 Posted May 31, 2022 Share Posted May 31, 2022 6 hours ago, Kilowatt Power said: Have you come across any resource(s) that documents this feature in detail? In short the 3 pH AC is rectified. Capacitors added as well as series 1kw 1 ohm resistor. This DC is then connected to the MPPT input at up to 400V DC and 5kw max for the 8kw unit. Refer to picture. Kilowatt Power 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isetech Posted May 31, 2022 Share Posted May 31, 2022 In simple terms - IF you looking for a simple, robust, economical standby inverter, then an axpert would be my first choice due to the price and reliability. If you want to do a lot more with your inverter, then a hybrid inverter would be my choice. I have installed many axpert units designed for the application, they do what is required. I have decided to start venturing down the hybrind road because we have a few special applications and from what I have read and researched, it sounds like the hybrid is going to do what is required. Before you choose an inverter, first decide what it is you are trying to achieve, once you have information, select the appropriate inverter. You could install an average system that is offered to most customers. You will only know if your system has been selected correctly after you have monitored it for a couple of months. There are so many factors to take into consideration, choose the wrong one and boy are you gonna wish you never wasted all that money. I see it happening too often. Replacing an incorrectly designed system will cost more than double to replace. Step 1) Understand what you are trying to achieve and all the options available. Step 2) Select your inverter once you understand the options, a simple thing like zero transfer time might be the application you require, maybe 180 mS would be ok, there is a lot to consider. You might not need a aux port or feed back into the grid. You might just be looking for a simple load shedding solution for the 2 hours the power is off. Do you really need to run your fridge for 2 hours during load shedding ? We had no power for 14 days, would a R250K system been any good, no because it was pissing with rain and cloudy most of the days. What was the right choice the very thing everyone tells you not to install a generator. Big deal it cost R300 per day to run the generator, which operating during the day then switched over to the little 600 watt inverter in the evenings which kept the lights on and power to the security system, router and TV, I had hot shower every night and my alarm and security system was operational the entire duration. Big deal it cost me R300 per day to run a 5 KVA generator. Step 3) Select your battery and type, a gel battery might be all you can afford, is it the right battery, maybe not but could be within your budget, can you afford a lithium battery, maybe is a 0.5C all you need or do you need a 1C, what type of load will be connected, maybe as in my case I am going to be using it for my workshop with lots of machines, so quick current spike would be taken into consideration. Step 4) Now that you know what you will be installing, select your panels, making sure they produce enough power to charge the batteries and keep the lights on during the day, not really but by now you understand what I am trying to get at. Think a little before you go taking second bonds on your house or investing your life saving in a system. In 5 years there will be better cheaper faster and longer lasting solutions, so installing a system and paying it off over 25 years with talk of it lasting 20 years, just sound like sales talk. If have money to piss against the wall then why even bother will all this cheap stuff, rather just buy the real thing and fit Victron, then at least you know you have a good quality long lasting product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorp007 Posted June 2, 2022 Share Posted June 2, 2022 Think a little before you go taking second bonds on your house or investing your life saving in a system. In 5 years there will be better cheaper faster and longer lasting solutions, so installing a system and paying it off over 25 years with talk of it lasting 20 years, just sound like sales talk. If have money to piss against the wall then why even bother will all this cheap stuff, rather just buy the real thing and fit Victron, then at least you know you have a good quality long lasting product. These 2 statements perhaps contradict each other. I have no problem with the great brand Victron. It just cost so much more to do the same as others. The lots of bits and pieces needed could also be a negative compared to an ALL IN THE BOX. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P1000 Posted June 2, 2022 Share Posted June 2, 2022 On 2022/05/31 at 8:20 AM, isetech said: rather just buy the real thing and fit Victron Victron is good, but way overhyped and overpriced. You can buy plenty of replacements from other brands for the price - many of which have much better build quality (IME). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isetech Posted June 2, 2022 Share Posted June 2, 2022 1 hour ago, Scorp007 said: These 2 statements perhaps contradict each other. I have no problem with the great brand Victron. It just cost so much more to do the same as others. The lots of bits and pieces needed could also be a negative compared to an ALL IN THE BOX. Its like buying fluke and major tech, major tech can do pretty much the same thing as Fluke, but I can tell you from experience, I dont have one Major tech tester, they have all literally fallen apart. All my fluke equipment is still operating and still used on site. I understand what you are saying, because I sit with a situation at the moment, I bought Hilti machines from the day I started my business (more than 30 years ago) the problem I sit with now, not one of the machines are supported by Hilti anymore, even though they have a 20 year machine warranty, they dont support the machines for 20 years, in fact some of my machines are not longer supported after 5 years. For this reason I no longer support Hilti, even though I believe it is the best quality product at the most expensive price, it makes no sense to outlaying large sums of money, if the company doesn't support the product. The worse part is they cant even service a machine which is supported, it has been returned numerous times, there have been promises of replacement and a whole lot of jiba jaba, but a machine that was sent to them in working order now just an ornament in my storeroom. The oil pissing out apparently due to a seal which was not replaced correctly they tried a second time failed again and the hammer action no longer functions correctly You have to ask yourself, do you pay premium price and hope to get the best support and know the product has a good reputation of outlasting its warranty , or do you extend your bond and buy an all in one solutions which hasnt been around long enough to prove its worth, and from my experience trying to get support which can result in a lot of frustration. The choice is yours to make, will it last and be supported, only time will tell. Victron is repaired within 48 hours, an example see if you can even get in contact with Hubble within 48 hours. I cant even get a response from them in 48 to buy a battery, imagine trying to get one repaired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedster Posted June 2, 2022 Share Posted June 2, 2022 28 minutes ago, isetech said: Its like buying fluke and major tech, major tech can do pretty much the same thing as Fluke, but I can tell you from experience, I dont have one Major tech tester, they have all literally fallen apart. All my fluke equipment is still operating and still used on site. I understand what you are saying, because I sit with a situation at the moment, I bought Hilti machines from the day I started my business (more than 30 years ago) the problem I sit with now, not one of the machines are supported by Hilti anymore, even though they have a 20 year machine warranty, they dont support the machines for 20 years, in fact some of my machines are not longer supported after 5 years. For this reason I no longer support Hilti, even though I believe it is the best quality product at the most expensive price, it makes no sense to outlaying large sums of money, if the company doesn't support the product. The worse part is they cant even service a machine which is supported, it has been returned numerous times, there have been promises of replacement and a whole lot of jiba jaba, but a machine that was sent to them in working order now just an ornament in my storeroom. The oil pissing out apparently due to a seal which was not replaced correctly they tried a second time failed again and the hammer action no longer functions correctly You have to ask yourself, do you pay premium price and hope to get the best support and know the product has a good reputation of outlasting its warranty , or do you extend your bond and buy an all in one solutions which hasnt been around long enough to prove its worth, and from my experience trying to get support which can result in a lot of frustration. The choice is yours to make, will it last and be supported, only time will tell. Victron is repaired within 48 hours, an example see if you can even get in contact with Hubble within 48 hours. I cant even get a response from them in 48 to buy a battery, imagine trying to get one repaired. Do Victron make batteries? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellow Measure Posted June 2, 2022 Share Posted June 2, 2022 (edited) 42 minutes ago, isetech said: Victron is repaired within 48 hours, an example see if you can even get in contact with Hubble within 48 hours. I cant even get a response from them in 48 to buy a battery, imagine trying to get one repaired. A bit of a false equivalence, don't you think? Edited June 2, 2022 by YellowTapemeasure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobster. Posted June 2, 2022 Share Posted June 2, 2022 2 hours ago, YellowTapemeasure said: A bit of a false equivalence, don't you think? I don't think so. Not because one company makes inverters and the other makes batteries. Service is part of what you pay for with most types of appliance, vehicle or equipment. It's also often a thing you only learn about after the event, unfortunately. It is by no means uniform, something you can take for granted. This includes what me might call pre-sales service. A couple of battery brands have been marked down on that account on this forum recently, and I think it's fair to do so as long as we have our facts straight and keep our expectations reasonable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellow Measure Posted June 2, 2022 Share Posted June 2, 2022 5 minutes ago, Bobster said: I don't think so. Not because one company makes inverters and the other makes batteries. Service is part of what you pay for with most types of appliance, vehicle or equipment. It's also often a thing you only learn about after the event, unfortunately. It is by no means uniform, something you can take for granted. This includes what me might call pre-sales service. A couple of battery brands have been marked down on that account on this forum recently, and I think it's fair to do so as long as we have our facts straight and keep our expectations reasonable. I am not so sure. I have experienced good support from Hubble, they responded within minutes of a recent support call to them. Back to @isetech claim, both he and you would need to give an example of another battery manufacturer that you can get into contact with, in under 48 hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobster. Posted June 2, 2022 Share Posted June 2, 2022 28 minutes ago, YellowTapemeasure said: I am not so sure. I have experienced good support from Hubble, they responded within minutes of a recent support call to them. Back to @isetech claim, both he and you would need to give an example of another battery manufacturer that you can get into contact with, in under 48 hours. Well you're certainly always ready to spring to Hubble's defence. I'd wager that if @isetech had mentioned Victron and Freedom Won, you'd have not bothered replying. I made no claim about 48 hours, I was talking about service and how we find out about it, and how we can't take it for granted. So I don't feel any need to accept your request to support a claim I never made. It is true that another battery maker was marked down, so to speak, recently (I'll add that it was not by me) because they didn't want to disclose certain information over the telephone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellow Measure Posted June 2, 2022 Share Posted June 2, 2022 16 minutes ago, Bobster said: Well you're certainly always ready to spring to Hubble's defence. I'd wager that if @isetech had mentioned Victron and Freedom Won, you'd have not bothered replying. I made no claim about 48 hours, I was talking about service and how we find out about it, and how we can't take it for granted. So I don't feel any need to accept your request to support a claim I never made. It is true that another battery maker was marked down, so to speak, recently (I'll add that it was not by me) because they didn't want to disclose certain information over the telephone. You are attempting to "poison the well" by suggesting that I am "springing to Hubble's defence". They don't need it, they make a great product. For the record, I am a customer of theirs, and have no other interest. The thing is that the name of the undisputed global leader in energy's name and service was mentioned, comparing it to that of a smallish South African battery company, along with a challenge to see if one could get similar service to theirs ("...see if you can even get in contact with Hubble within 48 hours"). Ultimately it suggested that their service is poor in comparison. In my mind, this is a false equivalence, akin to comparing 5 fruit salads with an orange. You then stated that it was not a false equivalence, yet cannot provide any useful facts or data comparing battery companies to battery companies, not even anecdotal. So basically no facts, just an opinion. Which is fine, I just needed to put it into perspective, we have no need to engage further if all arguments that you can produce are fallacious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigL Posted June 2, 2022 Share Posted June 2, 2022 There is an excellent YT video made by a South African guy that explains differences between the 2 types of inverter - just cant find the link Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorp007 Posted June 2, 2022 Share Posted June 2, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, CraigL said: There is an excellent YT video made by a South African guy that explains differences between the 2 types of inverter - just cant find the link I will help as I agree. Short and sweet........ https://youtu.be/D7rfv76ws4k Edited June 2, 2022 by Scorp007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigL Posted June 3, 2022 Share Posted June 3, 2022 16 hours ago, Scorp007 said: I will help as I agree. Short and sweet........ https://youtu.be/D7rfv76ws4k Thats it. Should be made a sticky on forum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebrsa Posted June 4, 2022 Share Posted June 4, 2022 If you want an off grid system, any of the inverters may be used. The moment you connect to the grid legislation applies. So if one is going to connect to the grid, first step is to enquire with municipality or Eskom if they supply directly to you, about regulations and applications. The inverter will then require a certificate of compliance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calli Posted February 6, 2023 Share Posted February 6, 2023 On 2022/05/22 at 1:04 PM, YellowTapemeasure said: My apologies, I was busy at the time, I didn't have the capacity to respond in full. Axpert inverters typically work well if all you want is a UPS, keeping essential loads going during a power failure or load-shedding utility. That said, there are losses in efficiency with any inverter, charging batteries from AC (AC -->DC conversion), storing the DC charge (standing losses), and then converting it all back from DC to usable AC again. These efficiency losses means that It becomes expensive to just keep the lights on. So you add some solar panels, thinking that it would be great to offset some of these losses using sun power. And it is, solar panels charge the batteries, and but when they are charged, they just sit there in the sun. So you decide that you want to use them directly to service loads, and they can, but the problem with most axperts is that they either use 100% Eskom power, or 100% battery power or 100% solar power, there's no in-between. This means that if you have a 5K Axpert inverter with panels capable generating say 2500W DC, and your load is 2000W, all is good, the inverter will convert and use solar power to power loads. The problem is when a cloud happens along, and solar generation drops to 1500W. The axpert-type inverter will switch 100% from solar to grid, and if not grid, 100% to battery. This is true for most axpert-type inverters, although I have heard of some that can do limited "blending" of sources. The Sunsynk, by contrast, will blend any source depending on how it is set up. In the above scenario, it will still use the 1500W from the panels, but supplement it with 500W of power from the grid, battery, aux, genny or wind turbine. So it is far more efficient. Another difference is that it is a true bi-directional hybrid inverter ( Sunsynk uses the term "Super Hybrid Parity Inverter"). The Grid and Aux input is bi directional in the sense that it operates as both an input and an output. So it can draw current from the grid or aux, and it can send current back to the grid / aux. It can also limit the load of the current flowing in either direction too, to a pre-determined wattage. This significant because, due to budgetary contraints, most homeowners cannot afford to put in a 20kW inverter, and so they split their db into essential and non-essential loads. Essential loads are usually quite light, and allow homeowners to reduce the size of the inverter to say 5kW. The non-essential loads are usually big current hogs (like water heating and pumping), and they are placed before the inverter, on the grid side, effectively being served directly by the grid before grid power even reaches the inverter. This also means that they are down when the grid power goes, but hot water is quite stable and doesn't change its temperature in four hours, and the pool won't go green immediately if there isn't any pump working, so this kind of works well from a functionality perspective. The problem with this is that it does not result in much efficiency gains or electricity savings, because the biggest current hogs are also the ones that are still serviced by the grid (when it is there). So homeowners either have to buy a bigger axpert type inverter, or get a smaller hot water installation, or change the element to a smaller one, or get a soft starter for the pool pump, and/or shift the load to the essentials side. The Sunsynk hybrid can safely export power to the grid side though, using a Current Transformer or CT coil to measure directional load (when the grid is up). So if you have a 4000W hot water heater element, it can still be on the grid or non-essentials side, but the Sunsynk can pump 4000W of excess solar to it. The CT coil measures the power and the inverter will reduce power when too much power is detected going to the grid. Even better, if the Sunsynk inverter only has 2000W of excess solar, the element will receive the other 200W from the grid. So it is efficient. The same with the Aux port, it is bi-directional, so it can be configured to take a genny input, or act as an output or "Smart Load" as Sunsynk calls it, and you can dump excess solar power towards it. Here is a video which explains it: Also important is battery support, the Sunsynk manual lists over 3 pages of batteries that it supports, most with CAN or RS485 communications. Another difference is the wide range of capacities that it supports. In addition to the ability for it to parallel (up to 16 inverters), it comes in 3.6K, 5.5k, 8.8K, and a whopping 16K for single phase installs, and there are 12 and 50K 3phase units available. Not even Victron makes such a wide range of self-contained units, their biggest is 5K. Pricing is a little more expensive than axpert-types, but it is nowhere near the pricing of Victron, which is a whole lot more. This probably covers the most pertinent differences between the majority of Axpert and Sunsynk Hybrid inverters, but it is certainly not all, and other forumites are welcome to supplement it with their favourite ones. There are many others, from its easy to use interface, to the warranty and support in South Africa, that are equally important. It's simply in a different league. Please note that I am not affiliated to Sunsynk in any way, I am just an enthusiastic owner who discovered this brilliant piece of kit under two years ago. Excellent explanation by Yellow Tapemeasure, thank you. Article had thrown a lot of clarity to my quest in understanding the intricacies. One of the suppliers I got quotes from, suggested I look at Luxpower LUXPOWER 5KW INVERTER 48V 80AX2 MPPT 120-450VDC/ WIFI / PARALLEL BL12048 1 SOLARWIZE LITHIUM WALL MOUNT 120Ah 48V 5,8KWh What worries me though (not that it is cheaper by R16k) but that it does not have CT and 2x MPPTs. Yours thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Yellow Measure 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenFields Posted February 6, 2023 Share Posted February 6, 2023 33 minutes ago, Calli said: One of the suppliers I got quotes from, suggested I look at Luxpower LUXPOWER 5KW INVERTER 48V 80AX2 MPPT 120-450VDC/ WIFI / PARALLEL BL12048 1 SOLARWIZE LITHIUM WALL MOUNT 120Ah 48V 5,8KWh What worries me though (not that it is cheaper by R16k) but that it does not have CT and 2x MPPTs. Check the exact model code of the Luxpower and search for the datasheet of that specific model, and check carefully down the list of specs.. If it's something like the SNA5000, or this below, then it has two MPPTs. https://nm-tech.co.za/products/luxpower-5kw-inverter-48v-80ax2-mppt-120-450vdc-wifi-parallel?variant=42953401237661 But you're right, it's more for offgrid usage, without a CT coil, and not able to push power back to non-essential loads or to the grid. Yellow Measure 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calli Posted February 7, 2023 Share Posted February 7, 2023 Thanks for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellow Measure Posted February 7, 2023 Share Posted February 7, 2023 (edited) 7 hours ago, Calli said: it does not have CT The SNA 5000 does not, but the more expensive ones do. SNA5000, is actually quite a capable device, and it can send power back to the grid, just not legally; and The Lux LXP-5K is more expensive, but does have a CT. Edited February 7, 2023 by YellowTapemeasure Scorp007 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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