Jump to content

Youda's off-grid LAB


Recommended Posts

Hi @RikH,

I have all of them paralleled on a 1-phase. That was my intention from the start, since with 1-phase it's much easier to split the power between all the home appliances. Simply, you don't need to ballance appliances across phases.

To be honest, I'm convinced that the current firmware for InfiniSolar Plus 5K does not even allow you to form a 3-phase system from 3 boxes. So, if you have a 3-phase pump, motors or a big AC unit, I would say that InfiniSolar Plus 10K will be a better solution, since it's a native 3-phase inverter. And you can parallel more Infini 10K units together too, in order to create a 30kW hybrid system, for example.

Other options are Axpert/PIP off-grid inverters, which CAN be combined into a 3-phase system. Or, GoodWe ET series is a nice 3-phase hybrid, but lacks some of the Infini features. Victron is the most flexible, I would say, but the most expensive too. But since you live in Netherlands and Victron is NL company, maybe that you'll be able to get a nice discount ;)

 

Speaking of Pylontech US3000, I found a local store here in Prague that had them on stock and the price was okay. Since the warehouse was in the city, I picked all the boxes myself in order to save on delivery fees.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 206
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

How to charge your Pylontech US3000 and why From time to time, there's a discussion on Pylontech US2000/US3000 batteries and what is the best charging voltage for them. So, here's the answer base

I'm really sorry @Luminous , but there's not much interesting to share. Just everyday's boring stuff. For example, I had to clearly label the bays in my space-shuttle landing dock, as some (femal

Hi guys, so, if you want to check the status of your Pylontech Phantom-S, US2000 or US3000, there's a great diagnostic tool for this called BatteryView. *DISCLAIMER: *Please note that wi

Posted Images

17 hours ago, RikH said:

I see you have this nice cover around the AC connections on the inverters, where they provided with the inverters? (I have 1 Infini 5kW but not these covers)

 

The covers for terminals are to be ordered separatelly. Just ask your dealer whether he has them on stock. There are 3 metal covers in a single package, bundled together with those plastic "cable passthrougs" or how do they call them.

image.thumb.png.05bbb11d25dd1d2ebb4b8fafe351ccc9.png

 

 

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello Youda, thanks for your detailed reply. I bought my inverter from MPP solar. Maybe I ask them for these covers. May I ask what you paid for the pylontechs and what the name of the supplier is? You can send me in PM as well.

15 kW is a lot on 1 phase, we're talking about 65 A. What is the max you draw from the grid and how much do your push back with you solar when batteries are full?

Thanks again!

Rik

Edited by RikH
Added question about 15 kW
Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for your answers Youda. But it raises more questions. This is what is bothering me: what if there is no sun and your batteries are almost depleted. How do you get the whole house running from the grid? I expect you have a three fase connection or do you have one very strong fase coming in? Long question short; if you have a demand of lets say 40A in the house and there is no sun and no battery left where is it coming from?

Just curious..

Rik

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, root said:

@Youda How did you mount the US3000s in the rack? Did you just use the standard spring clip captive nuts or did you install a rail of some sort. These bricks are heavy and I'm not quite comfortable installing them just using the 4 front holes. 

Exactly!
I have a friend who hanged some US2000 bricks in his rack using just the front brackets and screws, but US3000 bricks are too heavy for such kind of "installation".

So in my case, I mounted a couple of long metric screws in the rear vertical rails of the rack. And now they act as a support for each US3000 brick. These are super cheap, sold in 1 meter lenghts in every DYI store (aka Home Depot). In the front rails, there are just 4 spring clip M5 nuts that came with each brick.

image.png.2ca73f90bba642460ca3c4ef1258ae55.png

image.thumb.png.77a288ccefc0b3c579c6f3a872cb40bb.png

 

 

BTW: There are other ways how to solve the rack installation of the heavy batteries:

1) Mount some 1U blanking panels in the rear vertical rails, so each brick will sit on top of it. This creates a nice space for airflow too. I saw that even Pylontech used such approach on some of the oficial product photos.

2) Use the flexible rails that are originally meant for APC UPSes:

image.png.a8a777c14d7038f313df934894a2dc45.png

 

 

Edited by Youda
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, RikH said:

Thanks for your answers Youda. But it raises more questions. This is what is bothering me: what if there is no sun and your batteries are almost depleted. How do you get the whole house running from the grid? I expect you have a three fase connection or do you have one very strong fase coming in? Long question short; if you have a demand of lets say 40A in the house and there is no sun and no battery left where is it coming from?

Just curious..

Rik

That's a good question actually!

The house has 3x25A mains breaker. Therefore, when the inverters are in the bypass mode, I am limited to 1x25A draw from the grid. Luckilly, that's okay for all my appliances...if I obey these simple rules:

  • when in the bypass, do not turn-on more than  2 high-power appliances at once
  • when in the bypass, do not try to charge EV

To be honest, I'm pretty happy since during the last winter I had just 5 days where the inverters were forced to go into bypass.

On top of the above, I have a row of changeover switches installed in my DB, one switch for each circuit. So, I can selectively connect each circuit to the 1-phase PV, or connect it to a designated phase of the grid. Therefore, when all the circuits are switched to the grid, they are balanced across all the phases:

image.png.23ade9cec659718a95a6efbcb2635dbb.png

 

For a shame, I have the electric floor heating that consumes a LOT. In order to be able to feed the heating from the PV, I plan to implement a 3-phase AC-DC grid charger. When SoC will fall under a given threshold, the charger will kick-in and top-up the batteries. Once the batteries will go above another threshold, the charger will disconnect. This approach will allow me to smoothly draw power from all three phases of the grid, while still having a single powerfull phase produced by all the inverters. It's not the most efficient approach (nor cheapest) but it should work nicely and will be fun to play with.

 

I could install a set of contactors driven by the PLC that would automatically changeover all the circuits directly to grid and distribute the load across all three phases based on the state of the battery. But to me it's not as nice as the AC-DC chargers solution.

 

Anyway, my ultimate goal is to get rid of the grid completely....somewhere in the future. It won't be possible with my current house, I think. So, I have to build another house (better) or move to a yacht! ;)

 

 

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok thats a solution that should work. But how can you automate it? Just a thought, I guess you have your first inverter (master) connected to the grid(L1) via grid connection of course. Now what will happen if you disconnect the grid connections from inverters 2 and 3 (L1 as well I assume) and instead you connect L2 to the generator input of inverter 2 and L3 to gen input of inv 3?? Maybe you charge via the gen input and give power to the load connection in fase with L1? Use dry contact to start gen to close a relay that connects L2 and L3 to the inverters. That would be interesting..

Rik

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, RikH said:

Ok thats a solution that should work. But how can you automate it? Just a thought, I guess you have your first inverter (master) connected to the grid(L1) via grid connection of course. Now what will happen if you disconnect the grid connections from inverters 2 and 3 (L1 as well I assume) and instead you connect L2 to the generator input of inverter 2 and L3 to gen input of inv 3?? Maybe you charge via the gen input and give power to the load connection in fase with L1? Use dry contact to start gen to close a relay that connects L2 and L3 to the inverters. That would be interesting..

Rik

Using the generator terminals is an interesting idea, but I'm sure that it won't work:

  • When the Infini is being fed from the generator, it just passes the generator's output to the loads
  • At the same time, genset is charging the batteries
  • At the same time, MPPT is charging the batteries, but NOT providing the loads

Therefore, if L2 and L3 would be connected to the generator-in terminals of Infini2 and Infini3, the output of each unit would be out of phase with each other --> smoke + blast.

Essentialy, when two or more InfiniSolars are paralelled into a 1-phase system, there's no way how to feed them directly using a 3-phase grid. Simply, there's not enough hardware in the units to allow this. On top of it, whenever the unit senses AC input, it synchronizes itself with it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The AC-DC charger idea looks like this:

image.thumb.png.0d05d4a7ec5adc2dcef55daf6a5f40c0.png

The charger can be an industrial 48V DC charger, or it can be InfiniSolar Plus 10kW 3-phase, like depicted.
If that's the case, it will give me some additional MPPT inputs too ;)

Speaking of automation of charging from the grid, I'm talking to all my Inverters and Pylontech batteries via the PLC, so it's quite easy for me to turn on/off the charger, read SOC or any other operational value:

Capture.JPG.38622a51cc246e661ae0f3ba0041e803.JPG

 

 

image.png.df90000939df22f37a89257ec99b38a6.png

image.png.9d6f345ca224ec9821b91ce948c8f6ca.pngimage.png.ae863e84c164671c30e9d9b2ea21a3ba.png

 

Edited by Youda
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Youda said:
  • When the Infini is being fed from the generator, it just passes the generator's output to the loads

Therefore, if L2 and L3 would be connected to the generator-in terminals of Infini2 and Infini3, the output of each unit would be out of phase with each other --> smoke + blast.

Essentialy, when two or more InfiniSolars are paralelled into a 1-phase system, there's no way how to feed them directly using a 3-phase grid. Simply, there's not enough hardware in the units to allow this. On top of it, whenever the unit senses AC input, it synchronizes itself with it.

That's a pity, damn! In that case the idea of getting a industrial 48V charger is maybe the cheapest and most reliable. There are chargers on the market for forklifts etc. Guess they are way cheaper then a MPI 10kW.

Still it bothers me that there is no solution build inside. Is there a possibility we're overlooking something?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that when running Infinisolar in the offgrid mode, there's not much more options to explore.

To be honest, the InfiniSolar is meant to be used as true hybrid inverter for a standard household. It has (almost) every feature that you might require. Like grid feed in, grid feed in disable, mixing of grid+PV energy in the appliances that are connected BEFORE the inverter (so appliances can be installed anywhere in the house without the need to rewire the circuits), etc. So, the best mode for this inverter is a hybrid, Grid-Tie with Backup mode.

But if one needs to run the infinisolar in the offgrid mode, then he's basically not using a half of its features....while lacking some other capabilities at the same time.

Personally, I'm okay with the fact that I'm abusing the machine for a slightly different purpose than what it was meant for. Therefore I have to accept that my setup is far from being perfect and it needs a couple of additional tweaks :)

Edited by Youda
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 1 month later...
On 2019/05/04 at 12:33 PM, Youda said:

Given the increased distance, I've decided to upgrade battery cables too. Before, I used 50mm2 cables. Since I like to over-engineer things a bit, I went for CYA H07-VK 150mm2 cable and the appropriate cable lugs.

50mm2 and 150mm2 cable lugs mounted side-by-side:
image.png.70a8e062d08f889dbd3f1c702f1995d6.png

 

After - rack with 7x US3000 installed:
image.png.c38e40903d83f145c15a7366a52acaa1.png

There's one thing on the Pylontech products, that I don't like: The Amphenol SurLock terminals and cabling that's designed to stack up to 8 batteries together. Terminals are cool, but the cables are 4 AWG only. That could be okay for a couple of US2000 bricks, but I can't imagine to have 7-8 stacked US3000 bricks sharing a 4 AWG (20mm2) cable. Therefore, I ordered a spare set of SurLock cables, and wired first 4 bricks via 1st set of cables, while other 3 bricks are wired using 2nd set of cables. If I will do some upgrade in the future, my plan is to continue like that - use a single cable set per each 4 bricks, not per 8.

 

 

Hi Youda

my Shipping agent misplaced my Pylontech cables connecting the batteries to the inverter when I ordered for 3 numbers US3000 batteries. I have informed the factory for a replacement but it’s taken time 

Please where can I order for these cables online ?

 

 Thanks 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi @hancock

I'm located in the Europe, so I can't really advise you to use the same supplier as I used, as most of the EU suppliers are operating just in their homecountries.

So If you're in SA, order from these instead:

https://www.inverter-warehouse.co.za/collections/batteries/products/pylon-battery-cable

https://www.solar-shop.co.za/accessories/52-pylontech-usb2000b-plus-lithium-ion-cable-pack-0712885417018.html

From EBAY / UK:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pylontech-US2000-Long-Battery-Cables-2-meter-and-Communication-Cable-3-meter/223421449275

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Youda said:

Hi @hancock

I'm located in the Europe, so I can't really advise you to use the same supplier as I used, as most of the EU suppliers are operating just in their homecountries.

So If you're in SA, order from these instead:

https://www.inverter-warehouse.co.za/collections/batteries/products/pylon-battery-cable

https://www.solar-shop.co.za/accessories/52-pylontech-usb2000b-plus-lithium-ion-cable-pack-0712885417018.html

From EBAY / UK:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pylontech-US2000-Long-Battery-Cables-2-meter-and-Communication-Cable-3-meter/223421449275

 

Thanks for this Youda

Will give the ebay link a go

I'm not from SA and I don't think they ship international

Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, where are you from?

Basically, every eshop that sells Pylontech has these cable kits on stock too. You just have to distinguish between US2000/3000 version and the high-voltage version of the kit.
Therefore, I would search local "solar eshops" first.

 

As an option, if you want to make your own, longer, cables then you can order just the SurLok crimping lugs. The partnumber to search are:
SLPPA25BSO = orange lug, 90°, for 25mm2 cable
SLPPA25BSB = black lug, 90°, for 25mm2 cable

Just be sure to order these exact partnumbers, otherwise you get the keyed lug. For example: SLPPA25BSO is correct, SLPPA25BSO0 or SLPPA25BSO1 is keyed.

Then, you can crimp your own cables :)

Orderable worldwide from http://www.mouser.com

 

image.png.25ac96cf6c60cd36587155e29ac9abe8.png

image.png.a71df71b925c4ec7776ae9721eb0880e.png

 

 

 

 

Edited by Youda
Link to post
Share on other sites

What are they (Pylontech) thinking?  I have a stack of 4 x US3000.  The current charge and discharge limit that the Pylontech BMS sends through to the Victron Venus is 148 Amp.  And the thickest cable they provide for that current is 25mm?  

On 2019/10/26 at 5:53 AM, hancock said:

The Amphenol SurLock terminals and cabling that's designed to stack up to 8 batteries together.

And for 8 batteries - that would be almost 300 Amp?  They really need to make provision for thicker cables.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I've installed 4 x 2400w pylontechs in a housing supplied by Full Circle Solar. By chance these batteries stand upright two at a level. Due to the cable lengths not working out I split them in two parts. The amps is now halved in the cables as an unintended consequence. I would rather go for fewer amps in the battery cables and try to get a cable layout to do this. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Although I'm using Pylontech personally, there were two major objections that I had:

  • Thin cables was the first.
  • My second objection was 15S arrangement of the cells.

Speaking of amps, it's not just about cables. There are two internal passthroughs in each Pylon brick and SurLok 5.7mm version also has it's limitation (120 Amps). Manufacturer clearly state, that if you want to pull more than 120A from your bank, then you should either split it into more smaller piles or connect it using 4 cables instead of 2. Personally, I don't like the 4 cables option, as it might create a slight imbalance when charging/discharging. So in my case I split the pile into the two smaller ones, 5+4 bricks.

In theory, Pylontech could use SurLok 10.3mm version on the product, which is rated up to 350A and ready to be crimped on a 95mm2 cable. But I perfectly uderstand why they went with the cheaper version:

  • Choice of 25mm2 cables generates nice savings on the lugs and on the copper.
  • With the 8 bricks combined in a single pile, there's around 32 individual connections and the transitional resistance starts to build-up. Therefore, it does not make a sense to pull the theoretical maximum of 592A (8xUS3000) thru all these "resistors". No matter how thick is the cable, every unnecessary flexible connection is a bad thing.
  • Given that the majority of residential installations are having just around 4 bricks, 120A should be okay for most of the customers.

Like I said, I still think that Pylontech should use the bigger lugs and thicker cables, but I understand why they decided to go the cheaper way.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ironman said:

I have a stack of 4 x US3000.  The current charge and discharge limit that the Pylontech BMS sends through to the Victron Venus is 148 Amp.  And the thickest cable they provide for that current is 25mm?

They say their cable is 25mm and its 2 meter long. 

The volt drop over 2 meter with 148 Amp is 0.552 Volt or 1.15%

The volt drop over 2 meter with 296 Amp is 1.1 volt or 2.3%

This effectively means that you can run this current constantly and the cable should handle it just fine. The recommended volt drop for solar systems to reduce losses is 3% and the allowed volt drop according to the SANS regulation for safety is 5%.

Even with 8 battery's, you should still be okay.  

EDIT: I am struggling to find a affordable cabinet for 8 pylons, so I buy 2 x 4 US3000 cabinets, and then end up using 2 cable packs, effectively dividing the current.  

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have never liked the 25mm^2 cables they supply so I have always doubled up on the cables that you get with Pylon batteries. However many batteries you stack, you will always have open connectors on the top and bottom battery, so I put a set of cables in both. If you refer to SANS10142-1, the maximum current for 25mm^2 cables in free air, laying horizontally is 146A, all other orientations or mounting methods have lower current ratings, so I would rather play it safe and use more / bigger cables.

Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Jaco de Jongh said:

...
EDIT: I am struggling to find a affordable cabinet for 8 pylons, so I buy 2 x 4 US3000 cabinets, and then end up using 2 cable packs, effectively dividing the current.  

Hi @Jaco de Jongh

As you know for sure, Pylons are being made in the standard 19" form factor. Therefore, they easily fit in any 42U IT rack. Width-depth 600x600mm is just perfect. I bought two black cabinets from the local eshop for 333 EUR + VAT each. You're right that some vendors are offering these cabinets for ridiculous prices, for example 1500EUR etc. But I'm sure that you have a cheap source in SA too.

On the other hand, if you are okay having 2 smaller cabinets, there's nothing wrong about it :)

image.thumb.png.b067d75f9f9c78f9553583559e9abc16.png

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2019/06/06 at 9:41 AM, Youda said:

Hi guys,

just an update to Pylontech BMS + Axpert/InfiniSolar data connection:
The original information that I've received from MPP Solar, that BMS RJ45 cables are the same for MPI Hybrid and PIP, was found to be wrong. Actually, the wiring of the cable is a bit different, so here's the update:
image.png.c42dc147addf0c5bec061b7fd4abdc3a.png

Just for the reference, the live pins on the Pylontechs' side are still the same 1&2, protocol RS485. But the RS485 pins on the Axpert and on the InfiniSolar differ from each other. That's the reason, why you need a different cable for each type of the inverter.

Hope this info will be help someone...

Hi,

Thanks for this valuable information.

Can I assume this is why we get error 61 when we set setting 05 to PYL as the CAN/Communication cable supplied by Pylontech is cabled wrong, ie it is not crossed-over as in your pictures, the one point are the same as the other point as a normal network cable instead of a crossover cable?

Thanks, 

Regards,

Wilfred

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...