I've been told by the OEM I quote: 

Please note that you should not run without a BMS as this would damage the cells and has voided your warranty on the cells.

 Close quote: However even though I have run my system without BMS, reason been that trips my inverters.  I have proof that I've never exceeded the normal running cell voltage parameters. and that info was send to them see attached dashboard. the cells have never been over 3.5 V

Also never have I charged the battery over 40 Amps and never discharged bellow 50 Amps for a few minutes

It all started by me contacting them with a problem one of the 16 cells does not get to the same voltage level as the other 15.

My archived data clearly shows that there is a problem with cell number 8

First they tell me bring the battery over they will test it. than I voided the warranty because I run the battery without BMS what a lot of BS.

Be warned that is how LBSA treat they customers.

 

 

Maybe try to get the bms and your inverter working together, bring in help if needed.

its an important part of any li ion battery system, and will keep the cells happy and in good shape. if they weren't needed, why would every li ion battery supplier have one. 

Even cell phone/mobile li ion batts and laptop li ion batts have a bms.

its because li ion catches fire and can blow up, amongst other things and needs to be managed (consider this a possible saving your life or home suggestion), it also otherwise needs to be kept within fairly strict charge and discharge parameters. No your insurance wont be happy and possibly wont pay out btw, if it blows up/catches fire  because the installation wasn't done correctly and signed off on.

Once that's done, the next step based on data would be to get a replacement cell for any defective one's, its going to be cheaper than replacing the whole unit. It'll mean taking it in possibly and paying some small fee but still.

next time you buy something, I'd suggest to keep to the warranty guidelines, and definitely never tell anybody that you didn't, if it happens.

you limit your options substantially for recourse if you do, and their legal obligations to fulfil any warranty, if anything always ensure you've met or exceeded the warranty conditions.

some silly examples to follow -> (yes, I did put sand in the cars engine and it doesn't go now.... also don't go kayaking with your fridge, you know the usual)

I don't think there is any distributor on earth that will honor a warranty for any lithium based battery without a BMS. In fact, I don't think anybody will give you a warranty on anything other than a complete battery with integrated BMS.

12 hours ago, Antonio de Sa said:

It all started by me contacting them with a problem one of the 16 cells does not get to the same voltage level as the other 15.

Most battery management systems also do cell balancing and this is where you seem to be, no cell balancing due to no proper bms, the supplier is not unreasonable to tell you that they will not honor the guarantee. What are the cell voltages? Either way, lets assume you haven't totally destroyed the cells, you have to get a bms to manage the cells, ideally one that does active cell balancing and get it to talk to your inverter, I'd say.

1 hour ago, Nitrious said:

Maybe try to get the bms and your inverter working together, bring in help if needed.

its an important part of any li ion battery system, and will keep the cells happy and in good shape. if they weren't needed, why would every li ion battery supplier have one. 

Even cell phone/mobile li ion batts and laptop li ion batts have a bms.

its because li ion catches fire and can blow up, amongst other things and needs to be managed (consider this a possible saving your life or home suggestion), it also otherwise needs to be kept within fairly strict charge and discharge parameters. No your insurance wont be happy and possibly wont pay out btw, if it blows up/catches fire  because the installation wasn't done correctly and signed off on.

Once that's done, the next step based on data would be to get a replacement cell for any defective one's, its going to be cheaper than replacing the whole unit. It'll mean taking it in possibly and paying some small fee but still.

next time you buy something, I'd suggest to keep to the warranty guidelines, and definitely never tell anybody that you didn't, if it happens.

you limit your options substantially for recourse if you do, and their legal obligations to fulfil any warranty, if anything always ensure you've met or exceeded the warranty conditions.

some silly examples to follow -> (yes, I did put sand in the cars engine and it doesn't go now.... also don't go kayaking with your fridge, you know the usual)

@Nitrious

@Kalahari Meerkat

@P1000

What I mean is that the BMS is not connected to the inverters.

LBSA battery has an internal BMS and that is running perfectly. 

All necessary charge, discharge, float, cut out voltage etc...parameters are set in the inverters and that works 100%

LBSA as just come back to me after I've explained that the battery internal BMS is in place and working fine saying that in that case the warranty still valid.

Just one thing that I don't like and not very happy about it is they customer service, they told me to bring the battery over to them, in my humble opinion  a good customer service would send a technician over to my place to do the necessary tests.

My system does not run without a battery, I would have to drive from Sasolburg to JHB to deliver the battery, no idea how long they need to test it, that would imply I would be running on EishKom until such a time I can collect the battery from them.

Anyway guys thanks for the impute.

 

 

 

at least the warranty issue is cleared up, seems a lot of misunderstanding took place, sorry about that.

From what I can gather your system seems to be new(ish), surely you can chat to your installer about this, or maybe try and arrange a demo unit from LBSA and a tech to come out and do the swap, returning your unit after its been checked ?

I haven't dealt with them, so don't know its its possible, but certainly worth a try.  between your installer and LBSA there's got to be a spare battery somewhere while yours gets checked, especially since it hasn't been that long since installation.

its unlikely a tech can fix the cell onsite, however another possible option is to allow LBSA to remote in and check the battery, again its a suggestion with no basis on what's actually possible, certainly doable. 

then either settings can be adjusted correcting the issue or your warranty will come into effect without the trekking up and down. 

Edited January 5, 20223 yr by Nitrious

4 minutes ago, Nitrious said:

at least the warranty issue is cleared up, seems a lot of misunderstanding took place, sorry about that.

From what I can gather your system seems to be new(ish), surely you can chat to your installer about this, or maybe try and arrange a demo unit from LBSA and a tech to come out and do the swap, returning your unit after its been checked ?

I haven't dealt with them, so don't know its its possible, but certainly worth a try.  between your installer and LBSA there's got to be a spare battery somewhere while yours gets checked, especially since it hasn't been that long since installation.

@Nitrious Yes, my system is about 5 months old, up to about 5 days ago the battery cells were running 100%, then suddenly one of the 16 cells was not taking as much charge as the other 15, That I can clearly see on my monitoring system ( custom designed by my son ) True values from the battery BMS. see dashboard.

Now suddenly everything is running perfectly see second dashboard.

That concerns me a bit. I will keep a hawks eye on things.

The warranty document has a clause about returning the battery.

6 minutes ago, phidz said:

The warranty document has a clause about returning the battery.

@phidz, Thank you for the info.

That is exactly the problem I have 1 cell is much lower than the other 15 cells.

They did tell me to bring the battery over for testing.

I will organize with them to take the battery over soon.

I suspect that they will probably just swop out the faulty cell. 

1 hour ago, Sc00bs said:

I suspect that they will probably just swop out the faulty cell. 

@Sc00bs, Yeap, think so to. Now the question is how many batteries are out there operating with similar problems.

I identified the issue because of my monitoring program that reads every single parameter available from the battery internal BMS, I don't know if there are many people that can get such info from they own batteries.

8 hours ago, P1000 said:

I don't think there is any distributor on earth that will honor a warranty for any lithium based battery without a BMS. In fact, I don't think anybody will give you a warranty on anything other than a complete battery with integrated BMS.

 If the battery comes complete with integrated BMS, why will they claim you ran the battery without BMS? 😀

6 hours ago, Antonio de Sa said:

@Nitrious

@Kalahari Meerkat

@P1000

What I mean is that the BMS is not connected to the inverters.

LBSA battery has an internal BMS and that is running perfectly. 

All necessary charge, discharge, float, cut out voltage etc...parameters are set in the inverters and that works 100%

LBSA as just come back to me after I've explained that the battery internal BMS is in place and working fine saying that in that case the warranty still valid.

Just one thing that I don't like and not very happy about it is they customer service, they told me to bring the battery over to them, in my humble opinion  a good customer service would send a technician over to my place to do the necessary tests.

My system does not run without a battery, I would have to drive from Sasolburg to JHB to deliver the battery, no idea how long they need to test it, that would imply I would be running on EishKom until such a time I can collect the battery from them.

Anyway guys thanks for the impute.

 

 

 

Maybe you need to explain to the distributor that you did not remove the BMS from the battery. You just did not connect the communication with the inverter. Not having comms doesn't mean you did not have BMS. BMS is still there and should still work without communication with the inverter 

27 minutes ago, hoohloc said:

 If the battery comes complete with integrated BMS, why will they claim you ran the battery without BMS? 😀

It was all a misunderstanding. I told them that I was running the system without BMS, what I should have said is that I was running it without coms with the inverters.

They have agreed to test and repair the battery. I must take it to them.

And you right, I can clearly see the BMS doing what it's suppose to do 

maybe rule out the possibility of a software glitch first since it is custom software before undertaking a warranty claim, I know my inverter monitoring software glitches on occasion causing spikes in readings, since I know the reason it doesn't phase me but it is another possibility.

in my experience software coded for family/friends doesn't usually get the same treatment as production code. another truism is developers should never do final tests on their own code, they just don't see their own errors as a rule.

Edited January 6, 20223 yr by Nitrious

To be fair, getting a warranty on any system, even if it's installed properly has always and likely will continue to be problematic with manufacturers not wanting to honour anything. Similarly one will find that in all truthfulness it's still expensive for the average man/woman to be able to put up a solar system with the optimum battery bank vs load vs pv.

From personal experience, I have installers trying to push me to upgrade, at least my batteries to lithium even though my MPPsolar inverter will not be able to communicate with the lithium battery. It's tempting but the risk element is high. My best way for now is to replace my gel batteries that have reached end of life (EOL) with a similar pack, limp along for the next 5-6years whilst saving to upgrade to a 48v, 5Kva system with properly sized Lithium battery bank. You @Antonio de Sa are fortunate in that at least you have data you can refer to, in support of your case, most average "Joes" would not have this.

there's plenty of software on the market that can act as a bridge between your inverter and battery's ensuring comm's, monitoring, reports, feedback, just make sure before you purchase that both are supported first. No need to run blindly at all, plus gives older hardware (inverters) a new lease of life.

on the li ion side, I've decided to also temp postpone my move to li ion, as 10 kWh usable on agm's will cost around R11K only.

Edited January 7, 20223 yr by Nitrious

On 2022/01/05 at 5:01 PM, Antonio de Sa said:

It was all a misunderstanding. I told them that I was running the system without BMS, what I should have said is that I was running it without coms with the inverters.

They have agreed to test and repair the battery. I must take it to them.

And you right, I can clearly see the BMS doing what it's suppose to do 

From my understanding, the main reason for connecting an inverter to a BMS is so that the inverter get's a more accurate battery SOC level as the BMS's are often fitted with a shunt which is very accurate. It is not possible to get an accurate indication of the SOC of a lithium battery using the battery voltages due to the very flat voltage curve of lithium batteries.

Connecting to the batteries also gives the inverter information about the battery in regards to max charge/discharge levels, temperature etc but not the ability to change these settings/reading that I am aware off. 

Over & Under temperature, balancing of cell voltages, over amperage charging/discharging, over charging and prevention of running to too low a SOC, are all prevented by the BMS without any required input from the inverter. 

3 hours ago, Nitrious said:

there's plenty of software on the market that can act as a bridge between your inverter and battery's ensuring comm's, monitoring, reports, feedback, just make sure before you purchase that both are supported first. No need to run blindly at all, plus gives older hardware (inverters) a new lease of life.

on the li ion side, I've decided to also temp postpone my move to li ion, as 10 kWh usable on agm's will cost around R11K only.

What AGM batteries are those, which would cost only R11k for 10kWh usable?

3 hours ago, Sc00bs said:

From my understanding, the main reason for connecting an inverter to a BMS is so that the inverter get's a more accurate battery SOC level as the BMS's are often fitted with a shunt which is very accurate. It is not possible to get an accurate indication of the SOC of a lithium battery using the battery voltages due to the very flat voltage curve of lithium batteries.

Connecting to the batteries also gives the inverter information about the battery in regards to max charge/discharge levels, temperature etc but not the ability to change these settings/reading that I am aware off. 

Over & Under temperature, balancing of cell voltages, over amperage charging/discharging, over charging and prevention of running to too low a SOC, are all prevented by the BMS without any required input from the inverter. 

@Sc00bs with the monitoring program that I have all information  ie: SOC, SOH, individual cells voltage, temperature, charge and discharge current are retrieved from the battery BMS, using Modbus protocol that I got from the BMS OEM, namely SEPLOS, (Battery Management System (BMS) for
Communication MODBUS-ASCII Communication Protocol) --- and the same for all information from both Growatt inverters again using MODBUS-ASCII Communication Protocol supplied from the OEM.

So I know that the info I have is I would say 100% accurate. Basically I identified the problem in one of my battery cell it's pretty evident in the info I have and sent to LBSA technical department. see dashboard one cell does not take full voltage charge thus the battery do not reach 100% SOC.

 

4 hours ago, Nitrious said:

as 10 kWh usable on agm's will cost around R11K only.

Dude if this statement is true, I'll happily retract all my bad thoughts and statements about Lead Acid batteries and get some myself, where? what make? I'd probably go for 20kWh and treat them like fine porcelain.... please let me/us know...

 

3 hours ago, Kalahari Meerkat said:

Dude if this statement is true, I'll happily retract all my bad thoughts and statements about Lead Acid batteries and get some myself, where? what make? I'd probably go for 20kWh and treat them like fine porcelain.... please let me/us know...

 

I buy them second hand at near scrap prices, so 8x 200 ah at around R1.5k each, make is what's available. fine porcelain, not so much, they're really heavy.

they're tested as used but good, I also test them myself before leaving. sure they have a bit of wear on them, but my 170ah's have been performing quite well so far, I get my daily usage out of them.

anyway, my thinking is to trade in the 170ah's for 200ah's, and pay in the difference.

as with everyone I got all upset with lead acid batteries and their general dismal lifespans and performance, so this became my solution. One pop's I just get another and pay in the difference, usually a few hundred bucks (scrap price I get plus what the next batt costs). I should mention these guys are only around 15 mins from me, so its hardly a long trip.

Did I mention the 3 month warranty you get, so its not all risk. I haven't had to use it yet. Once your in the cycle, costs become very very low, and I haven't been back for a while actually, so far so good.

there is a charge inefficiency I've picked up and your definitely going to put more in that you take out, seems around 20-30% so far, but thats about the extent of the issues.

16x 200ah does seem like overkill and where would they all go.

Edited January 7, 20223 yr by Nitrious

post removed

Edited April 6, 20222 yr by Red Rubber Gloves
misread

I bought a 6kwh LBSA unit as a reseller. Worked well for the first 3 months and after that had endless problems. Sent it up to Joburg for a warranty repair and it came back with what seems to be the same fault. They want me to send it back for the second time but shipping from Cape Town to Joburg and back costs around R1000.00 not to mention the labour to uninstall and re-install, inconvenience etc.

I know that one of the cells is faulty but they've refused to provide me with a replacement part to repair it locally. They insist on it being sent back to them which is costly and impractical. They told me that if we repair it ourseves then will void the warranty but I'm not too concerned about that as the warranty is worth nothing if it costs a fortune to return for repairs.

My advice is that unless you live within close proximity of the factory then dont buy one. I certainly wont be doing so.

Edited July 13, 20222 yr by addisonk