On 2019/01/20 at 3:35 AM, phil.g00 said:

The Chinese are publicly disassociating themselves from the  used product.

Hi Guys

Just like to clarify some about the 2nd life batteries. BYD 2nd life batteries were never intended for sale.  After the batteries have reached the "end" of the "cycle life" from BYD electric vehicle, these batteries were only meant for research and educational purpose in China.  These batteries have gone through a 3rd/4th/5th party to bypass the distribution checks without we even know about it. 

BYD doesn't have any research data or study on the 2nd batties. Therefore, any data that is given by anyone claim to be is a false statement.  New batteries are 6000 cycles, 100% DOD and 10-year warranty and 2nd life batteries with "end" of cycle life are selling similar spec? I think the maths is simple.

As the most reputable international company in Energy section, we do not sell something is might cause harm or financial problem to our customers. But, we can't stop people from buying something they think there are buying, you might be paying a lot more then you think at the end of the day.

We like to thank customer that is support us and understood BYD is outperforming in terms of real-life performance, price and lifespan.

Because of your support, we will have better pricing soon.

I have attached the statement issued by BYD, and I apologise for the trouble some may have experienced.

If you are interested in distributing BYD products, please contact me.

Thank you

Statement.pdf

Edited January 27, 20197 yr by KhanAfriplusBYD

Folks show me stuff that isn't made in China or at least containing chineese components, come on . In the 80's remember the saying jap crap , and now cheap chineese. And now perceptions are the products from Japan are of a somewhat higher quality. But then I guess you really have to do a bit of digging cause you do get some really bad products and some good stuff too. In the case of the new BDY or the second life units it's just that one has been used and thus the cheaper price. As for value I don't think the price justifies the second life units.

36 minutes ago, seant said:

Folks show me stuff that isn't made in China or at least containing chineese components,

initially the nokia phone i had was made in nokia, finland - now that microsoft have taken over, it is made in china... some of our meat comes from south america, jam from israel [kosher ] and my sweetener from the czech republic and my salvation from the Lord 🙌

 

EDIT, OBVIOUSLY MY POST HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BYD THING - JUST A SORT OF 'VAN DIE OS OP DIE JAS'...

Edited January 28, 20197 yr by gabriel
xtra

@seant,

I think that statement by BYD is testament to the value BYD themselves place on their own reputation as a quality manufacturer.

Just think about it, when was the last time you heard of a Chinese company complaining of copyright infringement?

Something must be really wrong.

@phil.g00

What, the masters of reverse engineering complain about copyright . Lol

3 hours ago, gabriel said:

... now that microsoft have taken over, ...

And Microsoft seems to be cancelling Win10 Phone Dec 2019 ... Chinese did not bother to copy it? 🙂

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/18/microsoft-ending-windows-10-mobile-says-switch-to-iphone-or-android.html

5 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Chinese did not bother to copy it?

the chinese know a dead horse when they smell it 🤔.

i sit with an old 1520, superb sound, camera and size, especially the keyboard - just very limited memory, processor and battery-life...

I think what we have here is a situation not unlike the Fangpusun copies of equipment (Victron, Stecca, Outback). It has an impact on the company who made the original, because 1) they get tasked with support, which is usually swiftly denied, but still take up resources, and 2) it does reflect badly on the parent company (how many times has someone asked you, most indignantly... How could you ALLOW this to happen!?". It's not fair but it happens.

So BYD suddenly has a bunch of their stuff out there and there is the potential for damage. Naturally they are going to disassociate themselves from that.

Now... does it mean those 2nd life batteries are complete crap? Well, probably not. I have always known that batteries that come from vehicles will find a second life elsewhere, and the reason we know this is that people have been doing it for years with Tesla and Leaf batteries. I actually welcome this: It solves the recycling problem to some extent too, or at least delays it.

For me there are only two questions left, 1) Will it last as long as claimed, and 2) is it value for money.

I think the answer to the first question is no, you cannot take a battery that was EOLed in one application and give it the "as new" numbers on the second go round. These batteries have at best three quarters of their life left. So that then brings up the second question, given that it is likely not going to last 10 years (probably more like 5-7), and given the risk of a failure... is it still bang for buck? I'm frankly not sure about that.

Edited January 28, 20197 yr by plonkster

Hi @plonkster

 

Thanks for your feedback, there are many studies done on 2nd life batteries, BYD is not "disassociate" with 2nd batteries but rather looking on how to cycle the batteries in fair and justify ways. Because we don't have enough data and suitable application, we are not launching these batteries until we are satisfied with the application. 2nd life batteries need to be disassembled and repack after each cell is examed and tasted, making sure each cell are still healthy! Bare in mind each battery (cell) bank from each EV is entirely different, when mixing two, three or four different battery (cell) bank from different EV, that where the disaster will happen. One thing for sure is it not suitable for deep cycling and it's not for longer than three years, there is a reason why we call it "end" of the cycling life.

There are ways one can track 2nd life batteries' source with the reputable brand, however, there are companies purchase these 2nd life cells and rebrand them with lower cycle life. Unless the company produce their own cell,  it's untraceable and the end customer is paying for it.

 

32 minutes ago, KhanAfriplusBYD said:

BYD is not "disassociate"

I understand that word can have negative connotations, I meant merely that you have stated publicly that these batteries don't have your blessing, something that I understand perfectly, for exactly the reasons you have mentioned.

22 hours ago, KhanAfriplusBYD said:

Statement.pdf

attachment is not found

Hi @stoic

 

Please check on the top of the page. Thanks

21 hours ago, KhanAfriplusBYD said:

Hi Guys

Just like to clarify some about the 2nd life batteries. BYD 2nd life batteries were never intended for sale.  After the batteries have reached the "end" of the "cycle life" from BYD electric vehicle, these batteries were only meant for research and educational purpose in China.  These batteries have gone through a 3rd/4th/5th party to bypass the distribution checks without we even know about it. 

BYD doesn't have any research data or study on the 2nd batties. Therefore, any data that is given by anyone claim to be is a false statement.  New batteries are 6000 cycles, 100% DOD and 10-year warranty and 2nd life batteries with "end" of cycle life are selling similar spec? I think the maths is simple.

As the most reputable international company in Energy section, we do not sell something is might cause harm or financial problem to our customers. But, we can't stop people from buying something they think there are buying, you might be paying a lot more then you think at the end of the day.

We like to thank customer that is support us and understood BYD is outperforming in terms of real-life performance, price and lifespan.

Because of your support, we will have better pricing soon.

I have attached the statement issued by BYD, and I apologise for the trouble some may have experienced.

If you are interested in distributing BYD products, please contact me.

Thank you

Statement.pdf

 

interesting read i was waiting to see what would happen with the second life market started gaining traction and how consumers would take to the purchase of a battery that is used but still has life ? I feel sorry for the client being misinformed as he could have been better armed to make a better decision but the statements are always in the fine print !! Just like the pylontech 2kw battery that is claiming 6000 cycles to 80% dod ? which is correct but leaves the consumer with a battery that has around 55% remaining capacity at that point ? sweet deal not so sweet life span but consumers still buy based on marketing and what the re seller educates them with ! 

From what everyone is saying it sounds like it may be a case of "goedkoop is duurkoop" and let the buyer beware. 

On 2019/01/20 at 8:29 AM, stoic said:

4x Pylontech 2.4kw @ 15k each = 60k ..... only 8.5k more than the byd ... but has 6000 cycles at 80% DOD.

I almost purchased the BYD bank, but the math just does not make sense.

 

when it comes to Rand/Kwh, the Pylontech's are still the more economical, or affordable. My calcs come to about R1.14/Khw for a Pylontech. 

24 minutes ago, SilverNodashi said:

My calcs come to about R1.14/Khw for a Pylontech.

At those prices. @cpbotha, I might have to retract the statement that batteries don't (yet) make economic sense!

2 minutes ago, plonkster said:

At those prices. @cpbotha, I might have to retract the statement that batteries don't (yet) make economic sense!

How much do you pay for electricity? At my low rate of R300pm + 100 free units I pay R1.09 so for me batteries are not more economical yet  😜

On 2019/01/20 at 3:35 AM, phil.g00 said:

The solar industry is full of fly-by-nights.

there are so many fly-by-nights in the solar industry it darkens the sky 😎

1 minute ago, SilverNodashi said:

I pay R1.09

@plonkster we live in the wrong city. 

4 minutes ago, SilverNodashi said:

....not more economical yet  😜

YET being the crux of the biscuit 

4 minutes ago, gabriel said:

there are so many fly-by-nights in the solar industry it darkens the sky 😎

For sure. I saw a FB post last night from a company with a "nice name" in the industry. Their marketing photos are riddled with mistakes and incorrect components installed. Yet the clients, of whom they took the photos, paid for it. 

1 minute ago, gabriel said:

YET being the crux of the biscuit 

haha. At this price point I am actually going to see if I can go off-grid with Pylontech's. My current battery bank isn't quite depleted yet, and although much more expensive to run, still working fine, hence I haven't upgraded to Pylontech's yet. In July my Eskom price will go up by 13%, making it more expensive than Eskom. 

1 hour ago, gabriel said:

there are so many fly-by-nights in the solar industry it darkens the sky 😎

Good example . Electric supplier has a 24 volt Axpert installation done in his shop . 6mm battery wires can not be called cables . No battery disconnect or fuse . ???

1 hour ago, SilverNodashi said:

How much do you pay for electricity? At my low rate of R300pm + 100 free units I pay R1.09 so for me batteries are not more economical yet  😜

Since I use more than 600kWh a month, it means every unit I offset at the peak price of R2.55/kWh. But even at the <600kWh price of R1.85 it makes sense.

However, as we've said many times before, the killer is the opportunity cost (if you had just left that 100k in an interest bearing vehicle), the replacement cost after a decade, and the fact that you also have to pay for (and replace) all those other equipment (inverters, chargers, etc). When you add it all up, the consensus was that grid-tied has an actual ROI whereas batteries only made sense if the backup facility actually makes you money (eg, for an office where your employees can continue working instead of having a 2-hour smoke break).

But the very first hurdle has always been just getting the battery cost BELOW the grid cost, because once that happens, people who already have a grid-tied setup (ie the other half of the cost is accounted for to some extent) can add battery backup and it might actually make sense.

I think I calculated my battery cost at around somewhere between R1.50 and R2.50 per kWh. So I pretty much use it only to shave off the bit above 600kWh for now.

Edited March 19, 20197 yr by plonkster

6 minutes ago, plonkster said:

Since I use more than 600kWh a month, it means every unit I offset at the peak price of R2.55/kWh. But even at the <600kWh price of R1.85 it makes sense.

However, as we've said many times before, the killer is the opportunity cost (if you had just left that 100k in an interest bearing vehicle), the replacement cost after a decade, and the fact that you also have to pay for (and replace) all those other equipment (inverters, chargers, etc). When you add it all up, the consensus was that grid-tied has an actual ROI whereas batteries only made sense if the backup facility actually makes you money (eg, for an office where your employees can continue working instead of having a 2-hour smoke break).

But the very first hurdle has always been just getting the battery cost BELOW the grid cost, because once that happens, people who already have a grid-tied setup (ie the other half of the cost is accounted for to some extent) can add battery backup and it might actually make sense.

I think I calculated my battery cost at around somewhere between R1.50 and R2.50 per kWh. So I pretty much use it only to shave off the bit above 600kWh for now.

I'm not sure that these type of battery calculations make any real world sense. To compare different batteries perhaps? Ultimately your aim is to use as little battery power as possible to prolong the battery life, so the cost of solar power generated should be your yardstick as to whether to go off grid or not, batteries are just there for continuity.

Its like if your car is idling and using petrol but going nowhere, that is infinitely expensive in terms of R/km.