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Pylontech vs Hubble


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22 minutes ago, Chloe said:

There's a bit more to it but there's lots of information about the Sunsynk on the forum.

This is another topic altogether, we hijacked this topic about the batteries.

Let’s leave it for the sake of batteries discussion.

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38 minutes ago, Leshen said:

Yes they cannot in a "HYBRID" inverter... The best we South Africans know is a 250v MPPT. I love how the Victron fan club defend nonsense, read the fine print regarding the MPPT - MPPT operating range is also constrained by battery voltage - PV VOC should not exceed 8x battery float voltage, e.g. a 50V battery voltage maximum should have 400V maximum PV array. – see product manual for further information. That RS Smart Solar that you quoted, is that a Hybrid inverter? 

 

Leshen.png

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19 minutes ago, Jaco De Jongh said:

 

Leshen.png

So is this a Hybrid? Yes No? Is it available in SA Yes No? What does it Cost ? Axpert also makes a 500v Mppt so nothing new but the discussion is really about Batteries 😀 not an Axpert Clone..the Axpert can Do 7.2KW tbh the Axpert has better specs and its cheaper..

koda_Axpert_Max_20200907.pdf

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34 minutes ago, Jaco De Jongh said:

 

Leshen.png

Quoted from the Vicron website...

Off-Grid solar inverter

The Inverter RS Smart Solar 48/6000 is a 48V 6kVA Inverter with 450VDC 4kWp PV input. It is used in off-grid solar applications where AC power is required.

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3 minutes ago, Chloe said:

I think we've already concluded that this is not a HYBRID and also currently not available in SA. Also not on the COCT approval list.

Exactly that, seems like another Victron fan that debates without the facts.

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3 hours ago, Brani said:

What exactly do you mean by "Hybrid"?

A Hybrid inverter is one that primarily can blend Grid AC input and PV and/or battery input and supply that to the load. For example, take a Goodwe, Solis, Sunsynk, Fronius Gen24, Infinisolar, those are single units that have the ability to do all of that, each with a high voltage MPPT and battery input. For a Victron to achieve that, you need to have a battery inverter ie the Multiplus or Quattro, MPPTs and Controller, to achieve all that a true Hybrid can. This would cost 3 times as much. Now the Victron guys will argue this and say that an Easysolar is a hybrid however an Easysolar is just separate components packed together in a steel box to make it easier to install. 

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22 minutes ago, Jaco De Jongh said:

 

Lesbian2.PNG

Jaco, once again you misquote Victron manuals only to misinform the public. Yes it has a 450w MPPT, but it’s far from being a Hybrid.
How about you show me which Victron 8kw  Hybrid inverter can compete with a Sunsynk 8kw? Or does it not exist?

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1 hour ago, Leshen said:

For a Victron to achieve that, you need to have a battery inverter ie the Multiplus or Quattro, MPPTs and Controller, to achieve all that a true Hybrid can. This would cost 3 times as much. 

Yet it can be achieved. Not sure about 3 times as much, but definitely much more expensive. Modular approach always costs more but gives more flexibility. 
 

 

1 hour ago, Leshen said:

Now the Victron guys will argue this and say that an Easysolar is a hybrid however an Easysolar is just separate components packed together in a steel box to make it easier to install. 

How is that different to any other hybrid? They are also in one box and have the same components inside.

Just claiming a brand can’t do something because you dislike it, doesn’t do other brand justice. Both brands of inverters have a place in the market. 
 

We are still waiting for Hubble questions to be answered 

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9 hours ago, Brani said:

Yet it can be achieved. Not sure about 3 times as much, but definitely much more expensive. Modular approach always costs more but gives more flexibility. 
 

 

How is that different to any other hybrid? They are also in one box and have the same components inside.

Just claiming a brand can’t do something because you dislike it, doesn’t do other brand justice. Both brands of inverters have a place in the market. 
 

We are still waiting for Hubble questions to be answered 

Well these are just prices that I searched on Google. 
1. Sunsynk 8kw Hybrid Inverter R33000, 10400w MPPT. 

2. Victron 8kw Quattro R57000

3. Victron 250/85 4900w MPPT R15499 x 2 

4 Venus GX R5100

Victron totals to R93100. 

I didn’t even quote the thicker solar cable required due to the low voltage MPPT and all the comms cables. I think R33000 vs R93100 is significant. Almost 3 times as much. 
 

Easysolar is different in that it was an afterthought. Take a company like Fronius, who never had a Hybrid inverter and due to new technology, they have developed the Gen24. They certainly didn’t do what Victron did. Do you really think it would be ok if Sunsynk took 2 x 8kw Inverters and stuffed it into a metal box and called it a 16kw single phase inverter?
 

Goodwe is a great brand, which I owned but it cannot be paralleled. That’s just fact. Doesn’t make me dislike it. Go read my post carefully before you misquote me. I never said I disliked Victron. I said I understand the limitations of each brand including the Sunsynk I own. I certainly won’t get defensive if someone said that a Sunsynk’s fans are too loud or that the SOLARMAN app isn’t that great. 


 

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9 hours ago, Jaco De Jongh said:

😀

I am showing you the error in what you said about the MPPT, I am not saying anything about any Hybrids, but to be honest, I did not expect you to understand. 

Many people battle with trying to understand you. 

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15 hours ago, Boerseun said:

Dumb question what cable thickness are we running there ? Was this installed by a professional installer ? To me that looks like the Standard Pylon 25mm2 Cable and it looks like one set of 4 x US2000 =100Amp constant load max and 4 x US3000=128Amp  constant load Max. What size inverter is connected ? Context I bet the Installer installed a 160 AMP Fuse and Fuse Holder and its 160 Amp on the Pos and 160 amp on the neg..? So can any of the Solar Specialists here please tell me what the maximum amp rating for a 25mm2 Battery cable is? Also lets say the cable is 2 meters long with a voltage of 48VDC or what the recommended cable thickness for a Load of 100 amp @ 48v DC that is equal to 4.8KW the continuous load for the 4 x US2000 batteries and the 4 x US3000 Batteries can deliver 128 Amp @ 48v what is the recommended cable thickness for that maximum load which is equal to 6.144 KW ?

Exactly correct. The reason being that thicker battery cables become a real mess when bending around tight corners and when trying to fit connectors.

But, yes, point taken.

My installer is a professional... um... 'troublemaker' (it's what most people consider me). I qualified at the Suck-it-and-see academy.

You'd be wrong about the fuses. I used monstrous Mersen battery disconnect/fuse holders with 200A fuses because... see above.

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Sad that this is degenerated into a mud slinging & pissing match.. Unfortunately having the discussion about Victron/SunSynk etc is misplaced and has detracted from the point. 

This was a battery discussion. Maybe we should stick to that, and go have the measuring contest in a different topic.

Unfortunately while Hubble is clearing following this, its not what I would call constructive forum to answer given the rest of the fluff. (although it does seem Hubble answering selective questions, which is their right, not like Pylon-tech is going to come chat with us). @HubbleLithiumMaybe post the details in the actual product pages or in the post where you shared the installation photo's.

The useful bit I have gathered so far that is that wiring of these stacks( 4/5 bats) is something we should be a little more mindful of. Does anyone have a spec on max current for 25mm^2 vs 50 mm^2.

It is however interesting to note that there is some bias to Hubble for now all three staff picks are Hubble related.....Capture.JPG.c841f14cb14eda6890bce45f79514c2d.JPG

@Energy-Jason is there any direct links between the forum admin and Hubble? I know the power-forum-store is the official agent for at least the RIOT, any other links that we should know about in the interest of transparency? (I have no issue if so but is good to understand nevertheless).

While I will continue to follow all of these topics as I have invested in the Hubble equipment , once installed I will share my experience.

 

Now back to the actual topic of batteries

Edited by Kill_switch
grammer
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18 minutes ago, Kill_switch said:

Does anyone have a spec on max current for 25mm^2 vs 50 mm^2.

I use this calculator: https://www.solar-wind.co.uk/info/dc-cable-wire-sizing-tool-low-voltage-drop-calculator
Since battery cables seem to just be standard welding cables, attached is a datasheet which on page 3 shows current ratings. Use the 100% duty cycle column. The table shows current rating for 5 minutes of use, so adjust accordingly for cable heating up.

h01n2-d-welding-cable_2.pdf

Edited by recre8
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5 minutes ago, recre8 said:

Since battery cables seem to just be standard welding cables, attached is a datasheet which on page 3 shows current ratings. Use the 100% duty cycle column

Thank you I also like to use the same online one, but not sure if there is different specs for RSA

Based on this 25mm^2 @50V is good enough for up to 9kW ( 180A* 50V nominal)

Thus the need for 50mm^2 seems rather excessive( pending your power requirements)?

What is clear is that if you have 25mm^2 your breaker should be less than the rated current, else the wire will fail before the breaker.. @PaulinNorthcliff might make sense to get a lower rated fuse if this is valid.

So, 160A fuse for 25mm^2 and 250A fuse for 50mm^2?

Capture.JPG.413ac3d2f07c8a2c4ff1290d9db92d8e.JPG

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9 minutes ago, Brani said:

Here is a simple chart

Simple yes, however we now have 3 chart/specs each with a different preferred max... maybe that's why there is so much confusion?

Capture.thumb.JPG.82516d35e4a4dcefb33382cbbe63ed3d.JPG

Your spec gives 100A at 2.3 m (3% loss)

Website linked above gives 131A for 1% over the same distance

And the table linked gives 180A

and we wonder why each seems to hold their own view..

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7 minutes ago, Kill_switch said:

And the table linked gives 180A

Note that the table in the welding cable datasheet is an absolute maximum rating... the footnote under the table says that the conductors reach 85 Celsius after 5 minutes at the rated current. So you should use that table more as a fuse/breaker rating than the sustained current for the cable. The calculator also notes 85 Celsius. 

Edited by recre8
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