Hi All

I have a sunsynk inverter and 12 panels installed.

My first installer did not install a earth spike.  I have waited for months for COC. (yes he was paid, I know, I know…)

 

Eventually called installer #2, he and his electrician says earth spike is VERY NB.    He installed the earth spike and I have my COC now.  The earth spike is connected to both panel strings, the inverter and the two “trip” switches.  (if that is what they are called)

 

My question, how NB is the earth spike?

 

The guy that referred installer #1 to me, also does not have a earth spike. Installer #1 says it is not needed as his panels are installed on a zinc roof, and the roof should be earthed.

 

I would love to here your comments on the above. 

30 minutes ago, KeithP said:

Hi All

I have a sunsynk inverter and 12 panels installed.

My first installer did not install a earth spike.  I have waited for months for COC. (yes he was paid, I know, I know…)

 

Eventually called installer #2, he and his electrician says earth spike is VERY NB.    He installed the earth spike and I have my COC now.  The earth spike is connected to both panel strings, the inverter and the two “trip” switches.  (if that is what they are called)

 

My question, how NB is the earth spike?

 

The guy that referred installer #1 to me, also does not have a earth spike. Installer #1 says it is not needed as his panels are installed on a zinc roof, and the roof should be earthed.

 

I would love to here your comments on the above. 

My installation does not have an earth spike. My panels are earthed to the ''house earth'', for me and this is my personal opinion, if my DSTV dish and water pipes are bonded to my house earth, why can't I do the same for the PV panels? 

On 2022/01/09 at 4:07 PM, KeithP said:

My question, how NB is the earth spike?

NRS 097-2-1: 2017 Table B.3.

Earthing comments on the document mentions “earth electrode desired” 

In my opinion it is important to have the earth spike installed especially when it comes to lightning protection. Having that earth spike with surge protection devices might save you a couple of thousand of💲when the lightning choose your installation.

Only Incase of a TN system of electricity supply a earth electrode is normally not required this according to SANS 10142-1:2009

I think one could get away not installing one (technically) in Cape Town. Lightning is a rare sight this side. Having lived most my life in JHB though, I can't see how anybody WOULDN'T have one installed in JHB and surrounds. Electrical storms there are apocalyptic at times.

I installed a earthspike for my system.

Figured if it works its good,and if it doesnt it closes a loophole for the insurance company when there is a lightning claim.

They cost next to nothing compared to the rest of your install so you might as-well have it.

 

I would say earth spike is a must.  

On 2022/01/10 at 8:36 PM, Gerrie said:

Only Incase of a TN system of electricity supply a earth electrode is normally not required this according to SANS 10142-1:2009

My problem with that statement is a number of earthing systems don't have a dedicated PE and all single phase installations break the line and neutral (as do some 3p installations).  And if you become disconnected from the supply (circuit breaker or otherwise), that means your earth in your house is floating with respect to the actual earth.  Which is a huge lighting risk.  Typically you would notice it, but since a solar install allows you to run disconnected from your supply, I would definitely say it is a no-no, as you could run without an earth and never notice.

Furthermore I'm going to say the electrician saying that a Zinc roof *should* be bonded is a cop out, because he should have verified that.  Its all good and well claiming things should have been done, but you need to verify it was done that way (and that the wire is sufficient thickness).  Overall I would definitely install a dedicated earth wire for anything that goes on a roof.

Overall electrical installs should be all about safety in case the worst situation happens.  Relying on the electrical supplier to provide your earth isn't in the spirit of that when you are running your own power generation.

Edited January 13, 20223 yr by Gnome

Been looking up a bit and came accros this video.

Its a bit long but does explain the importance of grounding quite nicely.

 

18 minutes ago, Piper said:

Been looking up a bit and came accros this video.

Its a bit long but does explain the importance of grounding quite nicely.

 

A great post, I find Mike Holt's videos very insightful.

On 2022/01/14 at 2:49 PM, Piper said:

Been looking up a bit and came accros this video.

Its a bit long but does explain the importance of grounding quite nicely.

 

Great video, Mike also acknowledged that nobody knows how lightning works, I was told the same when I done a lightning protection course years back. Most lightning studies are based on philosophies because it’s a very complexed subject with many different views.

Reading through this thread, there seems to be no disadvantage to installing Earth spike/s, yet many reasons to rather have them, especially the insurance backing, the fact this could rather save thousands and ensure safety in the event of islanding/off-grid operation.
Based on this (reaching out to the installers and DIY's that do implement Earth spikes),

1. Would it be recommended to have seperate earth groundings per string or could the earth be daisy chained across strings and to a single spike.
2. Bare copper wire option is probably the preferred option, based on its composition.
3. Does one simply strap it to the mounting rail and them strap the strings rails together, to cover the entire string - or rely on the panels to be the conductor between rails.
4. Obviously these earth lines should remain outside of the roof  and make their way to ground externally, based on the fact should they attempt to carry a lighting strike surge to the ground they are likely to be the equivalent to glowing rods.
5. Would one recommend using the same or seperate earth spike/s for panels and equipment (Inverter/DB's/Combiners/Etc.), or separating these?

   

On 2022/01/09 at 4:07 PM, KeithP said:

Hi All

I have a sunsynk inverter and 12 panels installed.

My first installer did not install a earth spike.  I have waited for months for COC. (yes he was paid, I know, I know…)

 

Eventually called installer #2, he and his electrician says earth spike is VERY NB.    He installed the earth spike and I have my COC now.  The earth spike is connected to both panel strings, the inverter and the two “trip” switches.  (if that is what they are called)

 

My question, how NB is the earth spike?

 

The guy that referred installer #1 to me, also does not have a earth spike. Installer #1 says it is not needed as his panels are installed on a zinc roof, and the roof should be earthed.

 

I would love to here your comments on the above. 

I would strongly recommend that one does put in an earth rod/spike to earth the panels and also make sure all other protection devices (Surge Protection Devices & Breakers) are done correctly, including correct cabling. It takes just one freak accident either lightning or a short for one to then be left high and dry and without recourse to insurance companies who always love, never to pay out.

On 2022/01/14 at 3:49 PM, Piper said:

ts a bit long but does explain the importance of grounding quite nicely.

After watching the video, it clearly says that one should NOT drive a ground rod into the earth at 52:25......So what is the solution? 

My Electrician and HOA insisted my Panels get earthed directly to under 10 Ohms

They both say it is the new SANS requirement, so I had to do it to get signoff

That resulted in 4  Rod positions being drive into soil.  2 sets of 3x 1.2m rods and 2x 1.2m rods  bonded on 16mm earth wire over a distance of about 12m away from where it exits builing

The DB earth and PV Box Surge Protector Earths are joined but may not touch the Solar Panel earth

Edited February 17, 20223 yr by Gidsie

16 hours ago, AC-DC said:

Reading through this thread, there seems to be no disadvantage to installing Earth spike/s, yet many reasons to rather have them, especially the insurance backing, the fact this could rather save thousands and ensure safety in the event of islanding/off-grid operation.
Based on this (reaching out to the installers and DIY's that do implement Earth spikes),

1. Would it be recommended to have seperate earth groundings per string or could the earth be daisy chained across strings and to a single spike.
2. Bare copper wire option is probably the preferred option, based on its composition.
3. Does one simply strap it to the mounting rail and them strap the strings rails together, to cover the entire string - or rely on the panels to be the conductor between rails.
4. Obviously these earth lines should remain outside of the roof  and make their way to ground externally, based on the fact should they attempt to carry a lighting strike surge to the ground they are likely to be the equivalent to glowing rods.
5. Would one recommend using the same or seperate earth spike/s for panels and equipment (Inverter/DB's/Combiners/Etc.), or separating these?

   

I'm also curious to know the answer to question 3.

7 hours ago, Gidsie said:

The DB earth and PV Box Surge Protector Earths are joined but may not touch the Solar Panel earth

Hi Gussie it sounds like these guys did a pretty good job earthing your system, But i’m a bit curious as to why they would not bond the panel earths with the DB earths, do you know what the reason might be ?

 

Just now, Gerrie said:

Hi Gussie it sounds like these guys did a pretty good job earthing your system, But i’m a bit curious as to why they would not bond the panel earths with the DB earths, do you know what the reason might be ?

 

Apology for typo, Gidsie 

IMHO There are 2 reasons for bonding panels to shortest path to ground earth:

• To attempt to neutralize static build up on Solar Panels, which in turn attracks lightning
• To Dissepate energy to ground incase of a lighting strike, via shortest route and away from electrical equipment, Grid and infrastructure

SANS10142 and the supplementary solar SANS code insist on earthing. However some practicality comes to mind - If any part of your solar system can EVER be earthed to Neutral wire of your mains input, then DEFINITELY earth your equipment... Preferably to the closest spot near your input earth and definitely as low as possible as far as resistance. This may seem like common sense, but putting one side of a household earth on one side of a home and other earths on the other are going to create a differential voltage and subsequent current trying to get to each other. Despite what you think, voltage is not the killer of people and electronics - it is the current that kills (PS: that is why an earth leakage switch works on current not voltage).

To reduce current flow in things (people, stuff and electronics) the closest path to ground needs to be considered. A thick copper wire is great, but if there was no exit in the first place, then you might actually be making things worse by earthing stuff that didn't need earthing. I am not saying don't earth stuff, but understand where the power will go... An earth wire that goes direct to your DSTV might not be the best choice... Try set it to the shortest route to your incoming electricity box, and even hard wire it to the negative wire (in SA systems negative and Earth are the same)

If a system is completely isolated from any "electrical" earth then DONT earth your solar equipment, The reason for this is that ungrounded equipment is not a current path to ground, so you will avoid damaging equipment unnecessarily. However do test that your equipment is not grounded through its connections to everything else.

If you are unsure, then ground the panels via a conduit (strap, wires, etc) together but then connect a ground either on your incoming ground via the Neutral bar, or drop a 5m earth bar as close as possible to any nearby earth bar close to your incoming municipal power,

No installation is the same, so I can only provide some suggestions above, but hopefully that helps. Lightning never works as predicted, so it sometimes doesn't matter the precautions... your kit is fried!

To expand, and some may fight me on this:

• My roof panels weren't earthed, even though I live in a lightning area. It worked well until we started adding/changing stuff in my solar setup
• My inverter is definitely earthed otherwise neutral doesn't work
• The 2 earths are isolated, but a big lightning strike might jump the gap
• I did add a 3.2m galvanized (not copper as normal) private earth, but I placed this within 1m of the Neutral earth later

Personally, I don't believe in earths outside home/business for safety... To me any earth is a risk as it allows lightning to flow in areas it should have never been, and to take the shortcut through people that are grounding themselves in false belief 

You need to read the regulations with regards to the type of supply and earthing and surge protection.

On 2022/02/19 at 9:21 PM, isetech said:

You need to read the regulations with regards to the type of supply and earthing and surge protection.

The regulations are very clear, and the issue of creating a potential between 2 earths is very clear, do NOT do it.

There is Only one earth ! Repeat after me ! There is Only one earth

Lightening Protection System regulations and Solar Panel Grounding Regulations are completely different things, solar panels are not grounded for lightening protection and a 6mm square area wire is not up to the job of lightening protection which requires very large area down conductors 50mm square = 8mm diameter (here is where you all get confused, you see the 8mm and think area, some of you then put 10mm area cables in for lightning protection = WRONG the minimum area is 50 square mm and 2 down conductors for lightning protection, AGAIN, solar panel earthing is NOT for lightening protection.  

So lets stop pretending that a 6mm square area earth wire is going to afford ANY lightening protection, also lets not confuse surge protection MCBs (surge induced by lightening) with lightening protection systems either, surge MCBs clean the +VE and -VE power wires for DC, clean the LIVE wire for AC, the Neutral wire does not normally need to be cleaned for AC because we are TNC-S and Neutral is already earthed, unless you live on a farm with sub-db boards far away from the eskom point of control, you probably will never need to have 2-pole (1+N) AC surge protection, AGAIN Surge MCBs have nothing to do with the reason that solar panel chassis earth wiring is required it is a different 3rd subject area.

SANS NRS 97-2-1 regulations clearly specify when Earth spikes should be used and clearly specify that the earth spike should be connected to the Eskom Earth.

Gerrie is 100% right that NRS97-2-1 is the place to look.  B.3.2.2 specifies "not required" but "preferred" for embedded generators, this is expanded upon per system connection type in the connection diagrams at the end, it also specifies that if you use an earth electrode that 6mm is likely not enough for the connection to eskom, B.1.5.2 states that it must be at least HALF the area of the supply wires which are usually 16mm for domestic supply, so that means the COMPULSORY interconnect between the Earth Spike and Eskom is usually 10mm for 60A connections but may be 16mm for 80A connections  

Edited June 4, 20222 yr by CCC Telecom
extra info last paragraph

On 2022/06/04 at 9:05 AM, CCC Telecom said:

The regulations are very clear, and the issue of creating a potential between 2 earths is very clear, do NOT do it.

There is Only one earth ! Repeat after me ! There is Only one earth

Lightening Protection System regulations and Solar Panel Grounding Regulations are completely different things, solar panels are not grounded for lightening protection and a 6mm square area wire is not up to the job of lightening protection which requires very large area down conductors 50mm square = 8mm diameter (here is where you all get confused, you see the 8mm and think area, some of you then put 10mm area cables in for lightning protection = WRONG the minimum area is 50 square mm and 2 down conductors for lightning protection, AGAIN, solar panel earthing is NOT for lightening protection.  

So lets stop pretending that a 6mm square area earth wire is going to afford ANY lightening protection, also lets not confuse surge protection MCBs (surge induced by lightening) with lightening protection systems either, surge MCBs clean the +VE and -VE power wires for DC, clean the LIVE wire for AC, the Neutral wire does not normally need to be cleaned for AC because we are TNC-S and Neutral is already earthed, unless you live on a farm with sub-db boards far away from the eskom point of control, you probably will never need to have 2-pole (1+N) AC surge protection, AGAIN Surge MCBs have nothing to do with the reason that solar panel chassis earth wiring is required it is a different 3rd subject area.

SANS NRS 97-2-1 regulations clearly specify when Earth spikes should be used and clearly specify that the earth spike should be connected to the Eskom Earth.

Gerrie is 100% right that NRS97-2-1 is the place to look.  B.3.2.2 specifies "not required" but "preferred" for embedded generators, this is expanded upon per system connection type in the connection diagrams at the end, it also specifies that if you use an earth electrode that 6mm is likely not enough for the connection to eskom, B.1.5.2 states that it must be at least HALF the area of the supply wires which are usually 16mm for domestic supply, so that means the COMPULSORY interconnect between the Earth Spike and Eskom is usually 10mm for 60A connections but may be 16mm for 80A connections  

Thanks for this. On a very simple level, you mention SPD clean the LIVE wire for AC. Is there any benefit in adding a L+N SPD before my inverter, or will a simple L only SPD do just as well?

This document inspection summary may help some folks especially when they are getting quotations. If your quotation does not have these items you may want to query with the installer if these items are in fact part of the installation. 

The CoC these days looks like a lot of attention is paid to the AC integration mainly and this is correct. However, the devil's details are in these items: 

It is just a summary of pages not the entire document but is an eye opener for quite a few forum members that already have their installations and to the dismay of many they find that they are not safe nor compliant.

On 2022/06/08 at 11:33 AM, Speedster said:

Thanks for this. On a very simple level, you mention SPD clean the LIVE wire for AC. Is there any benefit in adding a L+N SPD before my inverter, or will a simple L only SPD do just as well?

This is a tricky question due to CoC inspectors, if the main DB has earth and neutral bonded, (NRS97-2-1 specifies this as compulsory for certain configurations), only live is required for the SPD because Neutral is already connected to earth, but if it does not have the PEN bonding then live and neutral (L+N) should both be protected by the SPD because of the distance to the local transformer, your average CoC inspector is going to say that both are required, so it is the path of least resistance to just install L+N in all cases, that way you don't have to have the bonding discussion with the CoC inspector.

The same applies to earth spikes, desired vs compulsory as per NRS97-2-1 will likely become compulsory in all cases when a CoC is performed, so again the path of least resistance is to install the earth spike in every case which brings us back to the required cross sectional area of the earth spike earth wire that must connect to the Eskom Earth which is a different requirement to the solar panel earth wire

Edited July 27, 20222 yr by CCC Telecom